Self-Understanding Is the Leadership Work
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“You can’t manage something that you’re not aware of or that you don’t understand, and therefore, if we’re trying to manage ourselves it’s a big thing to understand ourselves.” – Margaret Andrews
In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel chats with author and Harvard instructor Margaret Andrews why great leadership begins with self-understanding.
A few reasons why she is awesome — she is a seasoned executive, academic leader, author, speaker, and Harvard instructor. Margaret ran the MBA program at the MIT Sloan School of Management before becoming Associate Dean for Management Programs at Harvard University. She currently teaches courses and executive programs at Harvard. And is the founder of the MYLO Center, a private leadership development firm. Her clients include Amazon, Citi, Continental, Walmart, Wayfair, and the United Nations. And her new book is titled: Manage Yourself to Lead Others: Why Great Leadership Begins with Self-Understanding.
Connect with Margaret and learn more about her work…
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Russel Lolacher: And on the show today we have Margaret Andrews, and here’s why she is awesome. She’s a seasoned executive, academic leader, author, speaker, and instructor. Uh, she ran the MBA program at the MIT Sloan School of Management before becoming an associate dean for management programs at Harvard University, where she also teaches courses and executive programs.
She’s the founder of the Mylo Center, a private leadership development firm. Her clients, you may have heard of a few of them, Amazon, Citi, Continental, Walmart, you know, a couple of the bigger ones. Her book is the one you really need to be paying attention to because it hits into one of our principles, which I’m really excited to dig into today, which is about self-understanding, self-awareness.
The book named “Manage Yourself to Lead Others: Why Great Leadership Begins With Self-Understanding.” Hello, Margaret.
Margaret Andrews: Hello. Thanks for having me.
Russel Lolacher: Thrilled to have you here. Uh, as I mentioned, I talk a lot on the show about self, self, because the most important relationship we have with anybody in the workplace is with ourselves first.
So super excited to hear your insights into that. But before we get anywhere, Margaret, I can’t let you off the hook. You have to as- you have to answer the first question I ask all my guests, which is what is your best or worst employee experience?
Margaret Andrews: Ah, okay. So best I will say was actually, um, when I was in grad school and, uh, when we, you know, all got together, uh, to start classes, they had like a… I don’t know what it was, a half-day orientation session, which was quite honestly horrible. Uh, it was, you know, co-come sit in the room and listen to us talk to, to you for a while.
So I thought, “You know, wait a minute. This is one of the best things about being in grad school is the network that you make.” Uh, and I said, you know, I didn’t feel like they set us up very well. So what I did was I went and talked to the administration and I said, “Hey, here, I’d like to next year for, uh, for orientation, why don’t you give me an hour or maybe two hours and I’ll get a group together and we’ll run an exercise that’ll help people get to know each other.”
And they said, “Great.” So I, I, back then, this is pre-email, right? I literally stuffed something in everyone’s folder that said, “Hey, you know, if you wanna be part of this…” And I think, I think it was like seven or eight people showed up. And so we started brainstorming what to do and before I had to keep going back to them, “I think we need two hou- or four hours, or I think we need half a day.
I, I think we need a day. Actually, we’ve got a whole plan for a week,” right? And so, uh, anyway, they kept saying yes. And so anyway, we created the first student-run orientation program, and it was a huge success. And my class gelled doing that, and the class behind us gelled because we helped them. So it– to me that was one of the best lessons in leadership, and that is, is that pick a problem that bugs you and do something about it.
So, and by the way, that helped me get a job much later, uh, from doing that, so. Uh,
Russel Lolacher: How so? How so?
Margaret Andrews: Actually, because I, I stayed in touch with, uh, folks there and they called me up and one time several years after graduation, and they said, “Hey, we’re redoing the curriculum and we’d love to have some a-alumni input. You know, would you be willing?”
And I said, “Sure.” So we, we met like once a week at seven thirty in the morning, and, uh, after one of the sessions I just stopped by somebody’s office and long story short, you know, we, we talked and, um, then he said, you know, “Hey, what can I do for you?” And I said, “Nothing. I was just, you know, saying hi. I hadn’t seen you in a long time.”
He said, “Oh, I thought you were coming about the job.” And I said, “Well, what job?” And he said, “Oh, you know, we’re hiring, uh, a new executive director of the MBA program and it’s gonna have admissions and student affairs and career development.” I think my jaw just hit the floor and I said, “Now I’m here for the job,” right?
And uh, he said, “Well, you better hurry. They’ve surfaced– uh, you know, they hired an executive recruiting firm. They’ve got 10 candidates they’re interviewing them next week and, you know, uh, you’re kinda late.” So I, you know, I pulled out every stop I could think of. I emailed everybody I knew that could help me with this.
And so I walked on as candidate 11 and I walked out with the job, so. Uh, and I think a big part of it was ’cause people knew what I’d done there before.
Russel Lolacher: Two things that jump out at me that one, the transition from email being created from the beginning of that story to the end of that story
Margaret Andrews: Yes, yes. Made it much easier, by the way.
Russel Lolacher: It does. But it also, as we both know that because we become so electronic, things are so much more dismissible, um, because we have so many. But to have like a tangible piece of paper that reminds us… Anyway, I’m a communications nerd, so something that jumps out at me is like, ooh, I remember having to give out flyers.
I remember having to give out brochures. Absolutely. But also how important it is when you have an opportunity, and it breaks my heart when people look at them as a means to an end. I’m here to do a thing. I’m gonna work with you now, and then we’re gonna get the thing, and I’ll never have to look at you again.
As opposed to an opportunity where these relationships can actually enrich and benefit your life. I was in a university, and we were assigned a cohort, small group within a larger cohort, and we were about eight people, and we had to do these fun little trust exercises, and we were horrific at them. Like, we were– We failed everything.
We’re watching success after success after success happening around us, and we can’t get anything right. That was the most cohesive team I’ve ever worked with in my life because we bonded over our failure. We laughed about how horrible we were, and we ended up excelling over every other team because we had that trust.
We had that opportunity to connect i-in failure, but still to connect. So I love that story because we don’t, we don’t look at those as opportunities. We look at those as a delivery system for a thing, as opposed to how those can help with our careers, our life, our mental health, that sort of thing.
Margaret Andrews: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely
Russel Lolacher: So let’s– as much as we’re talking about others, which I’m sure we’re gonna jump into this ’cause what we’re talking about affects that, is ourselves.
Um, I constantly talk about that there are three, and I’ve expanded to six now, but there are three things that every great leader needs: self-awareness, situational awareness, and communication. They have to have those three or they’re just not a good leader. And you’ve written a book very much focusing on self-understanding, which I think I like that extra step, and I wanna– I’m gonna ask that question in a minute, but first I need to define from you what you mean by self-understanding.
What are you even talking about?
Margaret Andrews: Yeah. So a lot of times people will use self-awareness and self-understanding interchangeably, and that’s totally fine. I have a slightly different definition. I think everybody kind of does. In my mind, self-awareness oftentimes means emotional self-awareness. You know, kind of what emotion am I feeling right now?
Am I feeling joyous? Am I feeling sad? Whatever it is. And, you know, kind of that old idea of where do you feel it in your body? Uh, and to me, self-understanding includes the self-awareness, but it includes really a knowledge of who you are and how you got to be who you are, right? It’s, it’s, as I call it, the backstory, your context, how you were raised.
You know, it’s the, the people and ideas and the events that shaped you throughout your life. Every, you know, from being an infant all the way through yesterday kind of thing. Um, and the older you are, that’s a long list, right? And, um, it also is around your values, really thinking about what they are, and we can go into that later, but I’ve got a couple of quick ways in.
Um, and, you know, your own idea of success, not your parents’ idea of success, not your spouse’s idea of success, not society’s, uh, but your own, right? In both your personal and professional life. Um, and then just kind of thinking about, you know, uh, what feedback you’ve been given over your life and what that says about how p- how you show up for other people, and oftentimes paying more attention to the feedback that either surprised you or you disagreed with, because, uh, very often it’s, it’s the gift of a perspective you didn’t have.
Russel Lolacher: I, I love that because I mean, I, I do and have used self-awareness and self, uh, self-understanding interchangeably, and I’m gonna stop doing that because I love your differentiation because self-awareness is very much being aware. It’s like empathy and compassion. Empathy is feeling it versus compassion is doing something about it.
That’s how I kind of see that extra level of, okay, I know that I get angry in this situation, but why do you get angry in that situation? It’s sort of understanding context about yourself, the worldview, the, the upbringing, the socioeconomic, the why my parents were the way they were, the almost the therapy lens of that extra
Margaret Andrews: Actually, yeah. Absolutely. And I think it’s, you know, like, it’s kind of like what you were saying is you get angry about something or you get sad about something. Sometimes it’s like, oh, this person reminds me of someone, or this situation reminds me of something, and therefore you’re going back, right?
It’s those early influences that are shaping your reactions in the moment.
Russel Lolacher: And I, correct me if I’m wrong, I feel like if you’re aware– So we’ll call, call them triggers. So say if you’re aware of your trigger, as a leader, you may just avoid those situations going, “I know this makes me mad, so I won’t put myself in a situation.” But then that becomes avoidance, and that’s not leadership.
While self-understanding is going, “This is why I am the way I am. How can I shift my leadership style to be better in that situation as opposed to be avoiding?” Because you’ve got that extra bit of knowledge. Does that sound like the…
Margaret Andrews: Absolutely it is. It’s, it’s, I think awareness is the first step. Uh, and if you don’t have a– You can’t manage something that you’re not aware of or that you don’t understand. And therefore, if we’re trying to manage ourselves, uh, you know, it’s a big thing to understand ourselves. We’re pretty complex.
And, you know, I also think too that when we talk about authenticity, which is a word I don’t use all that much because I feel like it’s been overused and it now means nothing because everybody has their own definition. Um, but the idea that we are one person is not true. That, you know, we show up in different ways.
You know, we have good days and we have bad days, and we have days when we’re just so excited, we have so much energy, and days where we can barely lift our pen, right? So, you know, I think that the idea that we’re monolith is not true. That we… You know, what’s that saying? We contain multitudes.
Russel Lolacher: Well, I want to go back to your story that you mentioned earlier where it’s, it’s picking a problem and trying to address it. Well, Margaret, you wrote a book, so obviously you think there’s a problem out there around self-understanding that a lot of leaders are getting wrong. What are we getting wrong?
Margaret Andrews: Yeah, I think a lot of times that… Well, uh, uh, I have about eight different ways I can answer that, so let me just– They’re all competing in my head. Um, but, you know, sometimes people say, “Well, why do you think this class is so popular?” And I said, “You know, I think the name has something to do with it.” If somebody says, “Hey, you teach a class.
What’s the, what’s the title?” And I say, “It’s the class title is called Managing Yourself and Leading Others.” And every- and peoples have two reactions to that. One is, “Oh,” you know, like, “Hmm, maybe, maybe I should think about that.” And the other one is, “Ugh, can I get my boss to go?” Right? So people get what it means immediately just on the name.
And, uh, so I think that’s, that is a big part of, of it. I’m gonna stop for a second ’cause I forgot what your original question was. I was going into it, and then I forgot to come back. Sorry about that.
Russel Lolacher: No, no, absolutely. I basically brought up the point that you are talking about fixing problems, and you wrote a book basically like you’re trying– you were trying to fix a problem obviously with your book, so why are leaders getting this consistently wrong enough that you had to write a book about it?
Margaret Andrews: Yes. Yes. Thank you. Uh, so I, I think that, you know, we’ve all seen it. There’s all kinds of research out there and, you know, even without the research, we all know it’s true that, uh, I think it was, uh, I think it was the Hogan organization that did, uh, some research that said roughly 70% of us will have one really bad boss in our life, and 30% will have more than one.
I actually think those numbers are fairly low. Uh, and you know, if you talk to a lot of people, they have some pretty big horror stories, uh, around here. And, you know, having, um, been around management development for a long time, I, I’ve seen it, uh, myself and, uh, so I had to go through it as well. You know, I found that I wasn’t quite the leader I thought I was, and it was some feedback that, you know, as I said, it’s a gift of perspective you didn’t have before, and sometimes gifts come in very ugly packages.
Uh, you know, so somebody gave me some pretty rough feedback one time about how I was, you know, not very self-aware, and as much as it hurt, it turned out that it was true. Uh, and so I did not want that to stand, right? I really wanted to change that, and I worked very hard, did a lot of research to understand, uh, to understand the whole thing.
Then when I realized, you know, the whole thing really boils down to can you understand yourself and then manage yourself toward the leader you want to become, that is ultimately what this is about. And so I did that, put in a lot of work, a lot of trial and error. You know, it’s not a one and done. You’re gonna, you know, two steps forward, one step back kind of thing, especially in the beginning.
And, uh, so I saw lots of other people were, were struggling with this as well, in- including there’s one story in the book that is actually one of my favorites, and it was about when I was teaching this, um, executive program and we were talking about this case, which was about a doctor, he’s a surgeon. He’s abs– Dr. Ventura, he’s a great, great surgeon, right? He’s t- you know, he’s, he’s top-notch and he’s raising the reputation and the revenues of the hospital, et cetera. Um, at the same time, he’s really running roughshod over everybody. He’s bullying people, yelling at them, you know, creating a re– he’s, uh, actually, he’s driving people out of the organization and he’s leaving a very toxic environment for the people that stay.
So we, in this case, have to take the the perspective of his boss who’s a hospital administrator and say, “Oh my gosh, what do we do with this?” You know, and it’s a classic problem. I always say if you haven’t had a Ron Ventura in your life, you will. Uh, and it’s one of the hardest things in leadership. You have somebody who is absolutely killing it in one area and absolutely really killing other people o- on the other side.
And so, uh, it was a super impassioned debate with very strong arguments on both sides. Should we keep him and try to coach him, you know, sand off those rough edges, or should we let him go and send a message to the organization that this is not okay? So just as we’re, we’re narrowing down that discussion, I notice a hand raised in the back of the room and it’s James, and he has not spoken the entire two days that we’ve been together.
So I call on him and he says from the back of the room, he says, “I’m Dr. Ventura.” And just like in the movies, you know, the whole class turns around at the same time and looks at him. Then of course he realizes what he said and he laughs and he says, “Not the real V- Dr. Ventura.” He said, “I’m not a surgeon.” He said, “I’m an engineer.”
But he said basically everything else about that case could have been written about me. And he said, “In fact, that’s why I’m here.” Uh, he said, “I was recently passed over for a promotion.” He said, “If I don’t fix this, I’ll probably get fired.” And uh, he said, “You know, reading this case and listening to this discussion has been horrifying.”
He said, “Now I get it. Now I see what it looks like.” And so first of all, it was about the bravest thing I’ve ever seen happen in a classroom. But what was super interesting to me too was at the break everybody wanted to talk to him. And I thought, “Oh, there’s a lot more Dr. Venturas out there than we think, or people are fearful that they might actually be Dr. Ventura, they just haven’t known yet.
Russel Lolacher: I love– And, and it’s actually one of the roots of why I started the podcast was I’m as a learner. I’m doing this to be a better leader, and I’m hoping to bring a lot of people along with me. So I love the fact that you were like, “I need to write a book because I’m– could be one of those problems. Now I’m looking at others who also could be those problems.”
But it almost started with you going, “Oh, I…” It started internally. Almost your self-understanding led to going down that path. I absolutely adore that because I think we have to start as students. But what I also love in that moment is the vulnerability, and I think that’s a large piece that people don’t get to fix these problems is they’re afraid to be vulnerable.
They’re afraid to– because it will make them look like a weak leader. I’m using air quotes for those that people aren’t seeing me. One of the most impactful and, and in line story with your story is that I did a presentation on– I do a presentation on the seven blind spots of leadership. These are like the ecosystem challenges that stop us from being great leaders.
And this executive stood up at the end and she said, “I am so uncomfortable because these resonate with me so hard, but I don’t know why I feel uncomfortable.” And she said this in front of her colleagues. She said this in front of other executives, and she said, “But I need to go away and think about that.
Thank you for bringing this to my attention.” She could have shut up. She could have said nothing. She could have never moved the needle on her experience. But enough to recognize, much like yours, going, “This is– I know I’m in here somewhere. I don’t know how.” But just her being in that moment, being vulnerable to everybody who may have a different now a new perspective of her, suddenly built those connections, those relationships that probably were very unseen
Margaret Andrews: That, I love that story because it is courageous, right? Uh, and she was thinking out loud, and she just cracked it open for everyone else, right? All– Now everybody else in that room can say, “Hey, me too.”
Russel Lolacher: Gave them permission.
Margaret Andrews: Give’em permission, exactly. But I don’t know about you, uh, but, you know, somebody asked me, uh, one time, you know, “You’ve been teaching this class for almost 20 years.
Don’t you get sick of it?” I’m like, “No. Why do you think I teach it? It’s to remind myself all the time,” right? So every time– You, you talked about being a learner. I am continually learning. And do I mess up? Yes, right? Um, but I’m continuing, so it keeps it, uh, front and center for me as well. So we’re learning all the time
Russel Lolacher: It’s almost like our own self-mantras. Like we’re doing this to continue our learning. We’re learning. We’re still learning. We’re learning. I didn’t know this, like, like even just talking to you with self-awareness versus self-understanding. I’m like, nope, I need to reframe that, uh, just even for myself and how I communicate and understand.
So you’re fixing the problems, Margaret. You’re making us all better self-understanders. What does that look like in the workplace? What does a leader who understands themself, how do they show up? What is the benefit of being a person that has more self-understanding?
Margaret Andrews: Yeah. So I, I will, I will invite you and everybody who’s listening to think about your best boss, the best boss you’ve ever had. Uh, you know, it could be your current boss, the one right before this, the first boss you had, whatever it is. Because in general, almost every… I, I have this exercise, I won’t go through it, it’s a bit long.
Um, but it really comes down to your best boss. Your best boss is an example of great leadership, uh, because most of the time, the reason that we choose that person is based on their interpersonal skills. It’s based on them understanding you, uh, and, and understanding how you work and kind of challenging you to get a little bit better.
And so when I ask you, th- that’s a long way into saying, you know, I, um, after I run this exercise, I ask people, “Do you think that person that was your best boss understood themselves well?” And people nod. And I say, “Do you think they managed themselves pretty well?” And they nod. And, uh, and so I say, “Would you work with them again?”
And, uh, I would say almost everyone in every session is nodding yes. So I say that is what great leadership looks like. And these people began– They understood themselves, right? They understood what, who they were, what made them tick, what they wanted, uh, uh, and that, because understanding yourself helps you to understand other people.
Because we realize that we’re different from all these other people here, so that when we understand that, we realize that this person is different from everyone else too. And s- and that’s an okay thing, that if I’m not like all these other people, then you’re not like all these other people too.
Russel Lolacher: Is that your tipping point? Is that how you get people to become more interested in their self-understanding? I say this because there’s a lot of people at senior levels that assume they know themselves already. To be fair, they’ve been rewarded their entire career to get to those levels. Why do they need to know themselves now?
Like it’s, um– or, or they assume they are great leaders because they’ve gotten the bigger opportunities and the bigger paychecks. H- uh, what is your tipping point?
Margaret Andrews: Yeah. So you mean in terms of getting people to understand that this is a, this… Yeah. Very often it’s kind of the Dr. Ventura moment, or as I say, some of my very favorite people to work with are a, a couple things. One is more senior folks who have hit a wall, right? That, uh, the things that they’re doing are not working anymore.
That if you think about it, m- uh, for a good chunk of our career, we are rewarded for being really smart, uh, knowing our hard skills, whether it’s math or programming in R or understanding the tax code or, you know, whatever it is. Um, but when we start to, uh, lead other people, these things are still important, but they are relatively less important than those interpersonal skills, those relationship skills.
So I think that what, um, w- where I get people is when they’ve hit that wall and then they get up and go, “Wow, that hurt. Let me try that again.” Boom. And they hit the wall again and say, “Ah, I think maybe something’s missing here.” And then that’s when they’re ready for it. Um, the other group I really like working with is STEM people, you know, scientists, engineers.
I do a lot of work with, with medical folks and right. They were, you know, they might be the very best surgeon, but, uh, or the very best scientist, but now that they’re running the lab, that is a different set of skills and they’re ready. They’re ready to hear that now. Whereas before, maybe they weren’t
Russel Lolacher: It’s always that, and I brought this up a few times, the Michael Scott problem where we’ve got, like from “The Office,” where he’s, he’s a really good salesperson, and then they put him in an opportunity where he has to manage people and not be a salesperson anymore. So you’ve lost somebody that was great at something and now starting really from scratch in a lot of ways.
And talking to STEM people, like I, I’ve worked with quite a few engineers from time to time, and how their brain works is very much about solving a problem. It’s very much about… And people aren’t necessarily that simple of black and whites. They’re a little more complex.
Margaret Andrews: Absolutely!
Russel Lolacher: So understanding yourselves, unbelievably important.
So we talk about learning being an ongoing process. It’s something you and I invest in. What does it look like to do this in a self, uh, understanding sort of way? ‘Cause that’s gotta be a daily practice. That has to be a, a intentional thing.
Margaret Andrews: It’s intentional, and I think different people do it different ways, right? And so I, I don’t necessarily propose any one way, but I do have these six questions, you know, around who and whose thinking shaped you, the, the situations and events, as I say, lucky and unlucky accidents, your values, um, you know, your definition of success, uh, whether you understand your emotions, uh, uh, uh, and feedback that you’ve gotten.
So those kinds of things. And so, you know, I give people… In the classroom, I give them roughly five to ten minutes per question, right? And I say, “This is just a start,” right? You, you need to go back and, and revisit this and, and, you know, the first time you answer these questions, do not edit anything. No matter what comes out of your head, just let it roll down your arm, through your hand, into the pen, and onto the paper.
Uh, because really there’s something there. There may be some emotion there. Totally fine, right? It’s only for you. And, uh, so but you’re not one and done. So, you know, if you spent ten minutes per six questions, that’s an hour. And I say, “You know, you’re gonna spend more than that on, you know, especially on some of those questions.”
The first question, sometimes the second, uh, around mostly about who and who has shaped you. You know, I, I will tell you that my own answer to that first question of who and whose thinking is six over, six pages of single-spaced type, right? I finally moved it from handwriting on, you know, ’cause I kept editing it, right?
And that’s the thing. As you, as you change, you see things differently, right? Um, you’re looking at it one way, and then all of a sudden you get more insight into it. You’re like, “Ah, you know, there’s another, there’s another perspective here. Maybe I hadn’t seen that before.” So I’m not sure. Yeah, I think there’s…
Reflection is a great thing. Uh, you know, any type of reflection, literally two minutes a day. Here’s what I thought was gonna happen in the meeting, and here’s what happened in the meeting, right? That’s great reflection, uh, because it gives you some insight. So, um, but I do say to people, keep those, keep those questions and look at them routinely, right?
And that may mean different things to different people. I say in the first few months, look at them every couple of weeks because you’ll see things differently. You’ll add to it, et cetera. But then I said, you know, at a minimum, you should be looking at them once or twice a year and updating them.
Russel Lolacher: My worry is that people get too in their head about it because you’re talking about reflection and I’m thinking rumination, where people are d- going into the weeds a little too much, or they’re beating themselves up a little too much of not shifting fast enough or not changing enough, or maybe their values are not aligning.
How do you stay consistent from a curiosity perspective where you don’t shift, you go from self-reflection to rumination, but we need to stay, stay on reflection and not d- not to, not go too far off?
Margaret Andrews: You know, one of the, um, best things I ever– ’cause I think that’s a really common one, especially when you’re dealing with something difficult. You have a difficult relationship with somebody or whatever, right? We ruminate about what they said or what I said or, “Oh, they always do this,” right? You know, we can spiral downward very quickly.
Um, but one of the best things that I saw was, um, in some writing that Tasha Eurich did. Uh, she wrote the book called “Insight,” and I can’t remember if this was in the book or an article of hers that I read, but she said, you know, when you’re thinking about some of these things, she said focus on the what, not the why, which seems opposite of what you would think.
So she said think about, ask yourself, “What am I feeling? I’m feeling anger and sadness and hurt and betrayal,” or, right? You just think of all these words and, um, because she said if you think about why, that can get you spiraling. Um, uh, and I just thought, wow, that’s a great, great way into that. So oftentimes if you– because what you’re doing is there’s a, a professor at UCLA, and of course, I forget his name.
Um, uh, but he has a great saying about emotions. He said, “You name it to tame it.” And, uh, and that I think is kind of what she’s talking about in a, in a slightly different way is that if you are in a meeting and somebody says something that u-upsets you, right? So the meeting is not the time to stand up and yell and pound the desk and yell at them usually.
Um, but y-the idea is if you, if you acknowledge to yourself, “Wow, what that person just said makes me feel…” You’re thinking to yourself, how, what do I feel? What do I feel? Angry, embarrassed, you know, whatever it is. Uh, so it just gives you just a s– uh, a bit of space as, uh, from that emotion, right? So the emotion doesn’t have you.
Now you’re naming it, and once you name it, it just gives you a little bit of distance from it. So it allows you to sort of respond as opposed to react. But there goes intention in that too, right? I have to– if it’s, if you and I are in this meeting and, uh, you say something that triggers me, I may not want to react, right?
Maybe I react by shutting you out or, you know, doing something like that. But if I might be more intentional, I might think about, I really wanna engage him more, right? So I might think, “Oh, there he goes again. Here’s what I’m feeling.” Then if I say, “But I wanna change this relationship,” I might say, “Could you tell me more?”
Or, “Could you tell me more what’s behind that com– you know, or you seem to feel really strongly about this,” or you know what I mean? So it’s, it’s kind of going into that curiosity that you mentioned earlier.
Russel Lolacher: But I wanna, and maybe I heard wrong, but I wanna provide a little bit of clarity here. Maybe I misheard this. So we were talking initially when we started was it was about triggers, but it’s also understanding the why we have those triggers. And now we’re talking about the naming it in the moment, but that feels still about the in the moment do it, but the why might need to come later through that reflection.
Is that…
Margaret Andrews: Or earlier. Or earlier, right? Earlier helps you understand where that comes from and then, uh, so but in the moment, you may still be triggered. So oftentimes I think the, the why is, well, you know, it happens whenever it happens, right? Just start wherever it is. Um, but at some point you want to go back to who, who and what made me who I am, right?
Uh, and you know, many of us have, have had things in our life that, you know, are embarrassing or we don’t like or we wish hadn’t happened, right? Lots of people. Uh, and so I, I love this quote that, um, it’s by C.S. Lewis, the British author, and he said, “You can’t go back and change the beginning, but you can start where you are and change the ending.”
And to me, that is such a lovely saying because it’s saying, hey, yeah, some stuff happened to you maybe, but you have a lot of agency here and you don’t have to live that out. You can change it. Not easy, right? He’s not saying it’s easy, but I just thought that’s lovely because yep, the beginning is the beginning. The end is up to you.
Russel Lolacher: Values keep popping up into my brain as we keep talking because it’s such a thing that we talk about ourselves. We also put it on the posters in the organization as that’s sort of how the organization feels. But from a self-understanding standpoint, values can be unbelievably powerful and unbelievably useless depending on how we, we value and approach them.
How do they fit within this realm of better self-understanding to lead other people?
Margaret Andrews: Yeah. So I’ll, I’ll… Let me say two things on this. One is kind of going back to values of the organization. Very often, and this is not a dig, this is just a statement, is that a lot of times what we see as values on the wall, uh, in organizations are aspirational They’re aspirational, and so, uh, they are not, uh, always enacted, right?
So they can be different. Um, and so, but if organizations, uh, if that split is too much, people will not pay attention to the aspirational, they’ll only pay attention to what’s enacted. So but on a personal level, I would say that, um, uh, you know, I have two ways that I, uh, say– because values is this big amorphous term.
Most of us don’t really know what they are, uh, or we are told what they should be. Everybody should value their family, right? Uh, and so– and also– but I say you may value them in different order, and that’s okay. It’s better to know. And so, uh, so one, um, example or of a way in is to look at your calendar. If we were to look at your calendar, what would we infer about your values?
Because what we see are our enacted values. Where do you actually spend your time? An example of this is that if, um, you were to ask both my husband and I, um, you know, what are our values, we would both have on the list health and fitness. But if you looked at my husband’s calendar, it would be clear, right?
I– we’ve been married for over thirty years, and the whole time he works out, you know, six days a week, no matter what’s going on in his life, no matter how busy he is or whatever. He wakes up early, he stays up late, he fits it in. Um, and if you were to look at my calendar, you would not see it as much because work crowds it out, right?
A lot of times, oh, this meeting went over, or, you know, I have to wake up early and finish this article, or whatever it is. Uh, and so that doesn’t mean that I don’t value health and fitness. It means that I have other ones that, that are above it, right? So we have d- we have values, and they’re in different orders.
Um, so, uh, but I think what’s important to know is which one are yours, and they may be different from other people. And that’s okay. They’re yours. You get to do with them what you want. The other way in is, uh, I ask people, “Well, what makes you mad?” You know, when you hear about this, read it, witness it, whatever, and it just gets your blood boiling.
That, whatever it is that’s making– you’re seeing or hearing about, is, is stepping on a value. Uh, and that’s what’s making you mad. Uh, so you know, if you think about is there, is there a, um, uh, a consistency in those things. And oftentimes people think, “Oh my gosh. Yes, there is.” And I say, “Well, that’s a value.”
Uh, and so you know, a- and once you know your own values, it just– when I say it grounds you A little bit, right? It’s, uh, and you’re not… They’re, they’re kind of roots, uh, and so you’re more rooted. So when, you know, think about a tree with deep roots, it bends and it, you know, in, in the wind, but it doesn’t break ’cause it’s rooted.
And I oftentimes think that understanding our values… And, and there are times when, you know, something is happening, something’s going down, and you just, if you know your values, you say, “This is not for me,” and you might walk away. Um, that’s not to say that’s easy, and it’s not to say that there are no consequences.
There oftentimes are. But when you know your values, you can act.
Russel Lolacher: How do our teams fit into this? Because to be fair, your whole book is Manage Yourself to Lead Others. So we’re talking– We’ve talked very much about ourselves, but we’re not an island here. So as we’re making all that effort in ourselves, and that’s where the self-work has to start before we become interacting with other people, completely get that.
But doesn’t the team have a part to play in our own self-understanding or even that connective tissue of helping them?
Margaret Andrews: Yeah. Yeah. So I mean, our team, and so y- I think of teams in a couple different ways. One is, you know, I often call it a work group. It’s more hierarchical. If I’m the boss, I call them my team, but I’m the boss. Team can also mean cross-functional, so we all come from different parts of the organization, so we’re, we oftentimes are more peers.
Um, but either way, you’re absolutely right. But, and I think just the understanding that we are different helps us understand that they are different, right? They’ve had different things happen to them in their life. They’ve been given different opportunities. They have, you know, been educated differently, uh, all of these kinds of things.
So I think that, uh, you know, one of the most common questions that I get from people is, “Well, I’m very– I understand myself, you know, very, very well, but my boss,” right? Or, “My peer over here.” And the thing is, you can’t really change anybody else. Uh, you know, that old you lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink kind of thing is super true.
And so, you know, you have to think about, um, you know, if I, if, if their behaviors are in such a way that it is damaging to them in some way, if you’re their boss, guess what? That is your job. Uh, they may not wanna hear it, but that is your job. Because if they are doing things that is, um, fraying the team, right, then you need to do something about it.
You need to talk to them, uh, and usually multiple times. Uh, and, and one way to, uh, to think about it is if they get better, uh, the team gets better. If the team gets better, you all get better, and it’s better for the organization, et cetera. Um, but you know, there’s some people that do not wanna hear it, and then, you know, sometimes you have to give them feedback on how they take feedback.
Um, because feedback is intended, should be intended in my mind, to help people get better. It’s not, you know, to punish them, et cetera. But you know, somebody, especially somebody who’s pretty high achieving, very ambitious, if you tell them, “Listen, these behaviors will get in the way of a promotion,” right?
All of a sudden now you have their p- now you have their attention, right? So you can talk to them about that. But the harder one is when it’s somebody that is a peer. You don’t have, um You’re not above them in the hierarchy or your boss, which is a super common one too. And then what I’d say is you have to ask yourself, you know, if I told them, do I think it would matter, right?
There’s, uh, I, I love Tasha Eurich said, “There are people that are just unaware, and there are people that are aw- aware and don’t care.” I think those are the ones we’re talking about. If they really wouldn’t care, then why tell them, right? W- And, and also they may retaliate against you, uh, for telling them that, so you have to be very careful.
And I think that’s one of the reasons why we do have so many, um, so much dysfunctional behavior in the workplace, is that we’re, we’re afraid to tell somebody. We’re afraid that they wouldn’t want to, to make it better. Um, yeah
Russel Lolacher: And I want to flip that a bit though, because if we’re the leader, it’s not all about our feedback and advice for them. We should be inviting it back on ourselves because, I mean, as much as we’re talking about doing all this self-understanding and self-work, we’re doing it alone. Like, we might be doing it in workshops, we might be doing that.
Isn’t our teams, if we have the right relationship with them, one of the best resources for us to understand ourselves? Because we have to have them invite feedback to us as like– I’m thinking of like 360s and so forth, where it’s supposed to be anonymous. That’s always BS. But but, but it’s that, how can I serve better?
Where do I fall down for you? Where do– Because I mean, my worry is that we sit in our little cocoons and we go, “I’m sitting here getting self-aware. I’m journaling, I’m meditating,” without inviting feedback in. I get if we’re self-aware and we’re helping them, but z- it needs to be two-way. It can’t always be one-way.
Margaret Andrews: Yeah. Yeah, I agree with that. And, um, and, and I think that, y- uh, you know, we can ask these things, although I, I will say that even when you ask doesn’t mean that you always have to take all of the advice, right? And, and if you have kids, you will, you will understand this. But I remember when I– my kids were much younger, um, I made the total rookie mistake of, you know, I said, “Am I a good mom?”
And they said, “Yes.” And, and I said, “Well, how can I be a better mom?” And, um, and they thought for a second, and they came up with three things. Let’s see if I can remember them. They said, “You could let us stay up later, eat more junk food, and watch more TV.” And I thought, “I’m doing okay,” right? If those are their complaints, then I’m doing okay.
Uh, so what I’m saying is just what people want may not actually be best for them. Do you see what I’m saying? And that can also be true with our employees. And I’m not advocating not listening. That’s not what I mean. But what I’m saying is, is that their feedback, you have to filter that too. Uh, but I agree with you.
You need to ask. And the other thing I’ll say about that is that, um, you know, when we understand ourselves, part of it is, uh, is saying where do I– w- what’s the leader I want to become, right? So that is an aspirational part. So I wanna be a better listener, or I want to, you know, be more inspirational. I wanna, you know, be a better presenter, whatever it is.
So then you have to manage yourself to become better at that. And I always advocate for letting people know, in particular the people on your team. So, you know, if, if you say, “You know, I wanna be a better listener. I realize I cut people off or I finish their sentences,” or, you know, all of these types of things, you can tell people, “I am working on letting people finish their sentence, not thinking while they’re talking, thinking about how I’m gonna respond.”
And then, so the, the reason for that is, is I think that people are generally very helpful. They wanna help you get better. They will help you. And if they’re– if you’re doing it to be better for them, they will really help you. But the other thing is, is that you’re modeling great behavior. You’re showing them that, you know, no matter how high up in the h- uh, hierarchy you are, that you’re still working on it, that you’re still learning, you’re still adapting, and you are role modeling behavior that says, you know, “Hey, this is not easy, but I’m letting you know, and you’re gonna watch me make some mistakes too.”
Uh, and you’re letting them know it doesn’t, you know, they’re not fatal. They’re embarrassing, but not fatal.
Russel Lolacher: I will add to, to anybody listening to this conversation as well, is that certainly be very judicious about the kind of feedback you get, but that should also include your colleagues and your boss. They aren’t necessarily good at this either. They’ve– I’ve seen 360s where everything’s great, and then there’s this one outlier that’s bat crazy, that has no context, and they’re the highest in the hierarchy, and they’re so out of touch.
So I, I think if we’re looking for that feedback of our own self-understanding, I think we have that filter, but just because of where you sit in the organization does not put more or less value on it. It’s about its value in making you, to your point, that measure of success that we’re trying to attain for ourselves.
Because I’ve had some of the best feedback in the world come from some of the frontline staff that are probably, unfortunately, the least paid, and had some of the worst advice I’ve ever gotten in my life from people that were completely, you know, at the highest of executive, where you’re supposed to be, want their jobs.
I’m like, “Not if I become that person. I don’t wanna, I don’t want to.” So I think it’s a matter of on a case-by-case basis. I just, I don’t wanna… I just want, don’t want people think that we only filter our team’s feedback. We should be filtering all our feedback.
Margaret Andrews: Yeah, I think that’s true. And I, I oftentimes think that, you know, pay attention in particular to feedback that surprises you, right? Because it’s something that you– it could be pointing to a blind spot, maybe not, but, you know, could be. And the other is, is that you want to just dismiss. You know, I’ve heard people say, “I only take feedback from people I respect.”
And I say, “Ooh, you know, you may be, you may be missing out on some pretty helpful stuff there.”
Russel Lolacher: How do we know we’re becoming that self-understood leader? Look at me with the past tense. Self-understood. Yeah, okay, that works.
Margaret Andrews: There will be a grammar test.
Russel Lolacher: I was gonna say, good communication, bad grammar. That’s what I always say. I’m like, “You knew what I meant, but the word was wrong.” Uh, but in this particular case, you’ve talked about we need to measure– we need to figure out what our own success looks like regardless of the organization, regardless of our own environment.
What do we think looks like success? How do we know we’re achieving it? How do we… How are we measuring this from a day-to-day, week-to-week, year-to-year going, “You know what? I am a better listener. Oh, I am a…” Like I– How do I know I’m moving the needle?
Margaret Andrews: Yeah, yeah. Very oftentimes you can feel it, right? You feel the shift in the relationships. And, uh, so part of it is you just kind of know it. And, but the other thing I’ll say is that, uh, when, when you’re learning a new skill or behavior, I think it’s important to look at your progress as opposed to how far away you are from perfection, right?
So when, when we are working on a new skill, uh, a lot of times we’re pretty, um, mean to ourselves, right? And just like, “Oh, you idiot,” you know, “How, there you did it again,” kind of thing. And, and, you know, that’s, that’s not helpful, right? You might, uh, uh, instead you might think about reflecting and saying, you know, “What went well in that encounter?
What was I thinking? What did I actually do? If I were there right now again and could redo this, what would I do differently?” Uh, because the next time you can correct for that. So yeah, maybe you blew it here, but guess what? We all blow it. Uh, so you can, you can tell, you feel it. Um, you can tell by the way other people are interacting with you too.
Russel Lolacher: How does this show up in cultures that might not align? Because we work in organizations that have a million subcultures within them. So if you’re in a team and your team’s getting it, they’re not only feeding you, but you’re feeding them around self understanding and, and that, but then you’re working with other business areas or a larger culture that’s all about deliverable.
I don’t care what you’re like as a human, just do the thing I’m paying you to do. How does that, how does that fuel you? How do you survive? How do you get resilient when you’re trying to be a better leader, but leadership isn’t really what the priority is in the organization. It’s about management and delivery
Margaret Andrews: Yeah. So first of all, I’ll say I don’t think that they are, um, opposites, right? That, and a lot of times people think about accountability and grace, right? That these are two ends of the spectrum, and my thought is actually they’re not. Um, that a lot of times, you know, you think about somebody who’s, who’s learning, right?
You know, a new intern or a new employee. First of all, they barely know where the bathroom is on day one, right? They don’t know who to go to. Uh, they don’t know anything, really. So you’re helping them. You’re helping them get acclimated, uh, et cetera. So we wouldn’t expect them to be, uh, great at that at first.
But, so they’re not, they’re not opposites. But I will say that, you know, culture is a big thing, and I think part of understanding yourself is understanding the cultures where you will fit, uh, or what is, what is making you itch, as I say. You know, to me, when you’re in a culture that it doesn’t– isn’t a good fit for you, to me, it’s a little bit like having an itchy sweater, right?
You know, it’s, you’re just never comfortable in it. Can you wear it? Yes. But are you dying to take it off? Yes. Um, so I, I think that, uh, it– that you’re right. So in a large organization, there’s sort of an overarching culture, but there are a lot of micro cultures in there, right? Marketing is almost always different from R&D, right?
They’re just… And they’re different from compliance, uh, because they, they have different jobs. They were trained differently. They’re on the hook for different things. So, but with culture, I think that there is an element of fit that I think that you can survive in a culture that doesn’t fit you, but you will rarely thrive, uh, because you’re gonna have, what, what do they call it?
The Sunday scaries, right? When you wake up and think, “Oh, I don’t wanna go to work today,” kind of thing. Um, so, uh, I think culture is a big thing, and understanding yourself can help you understand, do I fit here, and, uh, a-and is this a good, is this a good culture for me?
Russel Lolacher: Is there a line where it’s about compromise? Is there a line– Or ’cause I, I hear, and it’s said a lot, and I can’t tell you how much it kind of bothers me, the whole bring your full self to work. Well, what if your full self is a jerk? Like, what if you’re… Right? Like, we’re not all perfect human beings. So but what if our full self doesn’t align with the culture or the subculture I’m in, but not completely, not opposite, right?
But then are we compromising who we are and how we self-understand, or are we adapting? Is there like, it seem- feels like there’s this fine line. How would you, how do you look at that?
Margaret Andrews: Yeah, I mean, uh, the thing about bringing your whole self to work, I-I’ve always had a, a struggle with that too, because yeah, there’s some– to me, it’s just appropriate, right? There’s just understanding appropriate. And the thing is, is that not everybody understands appropriate, uh, whether it’s dress or behaviors or things like that.
So I think, you know, part of culture, we’re all part of cultures. Our families have cultures. And, uh, so what happens is, think about it, when, uh, when there’s a, a new baby, they, they’re all id, right? That’s all they care about is being fed, cleaned, right, et cetera, and what they want. But over time, we tell them certain things.
“Hey, that’s not appropriate. You know, you can’t lay down on the middle of the floor and have a tantrum,” right? There are some leaders that probably should be reminded of that. Uh, but, but the thing is about culture is, uh, I think it was Ed Schein who said, you know, “With culture, you don’t get what you, what you want, you get what you settle for,” right?
And, uh, and I think there’s, there’s some truth in that. So I think that with– I, I don’t think– You know, if I’m in a really bad mood, that is my whole self in that moment. But that doesn’t mean that it’s okay that I yell at people or I’m rude to them or I don’t answer their email, right? It’s, uh, those things that I might feel like doing.
That’s just not appropriate in the workplace. So I, I, I, I think of the word adapting, you know, and maybe it’s the same as compromise. I hadn’t necessarily thought about sort of that similarity and difference. Um, but the thing is, if you, if you really feel like you can’t show up as part of yourself, then that’s probably too much.
So I’m, I’m not sure there’s a formula there, but I think you know it. If, if you have more bad days– I always love what Steve Jobs said, you know, in his commencement speech at Stanford. He said he always thought if he, you know– If for two weeks, uh, running things were not going well, he said it was time for him to stop and take a look at things.
And I thought, you know, I think there’s some, some carryover to what we’re talking about. If, if you really dislike going in or you feel really anxious or something like that all the time, then maybe it’s not right. Although I will say an exception for that is, is that we’re not always gonna be comfortable, right?
You know, we’re not always gonna get our way. That’s just not the way life works. But I think, you know, part of me says that if you are really learning something, something valuable, which sometimes, by the way, is I never wanna make somebody feel this way, right? That’s a still a valuable learning.
Russel Lolacher: There is a big difference between being uncomfortable versus being unhappy. Like uncomfortable is maybe you’re learning something. I mean, uncomfortable also could be it’s a horrible culture, they, you know, misogyny, the, the racism, like whatever. It could be horrible bosses. But there is a level of discomfort.
Don’t just flip the switch and say, “I’m out of here,” when it could just be you’re in unfamiliar territory and this is an opportunity, ’cause there are a few people that are like that, especially generationally, not to point fingers, but it is, uh, I’m uncomfortable, so this isn’t the right work for me.
Margaret Andrews: Right. I agree with you. Yeah, especially when you know you’re learning something because, you know, you think about learning a new language or a musical instrument or something, you don’t just pick it up and start playing. You make a lot of mistakes. I mean, you sound terrible in the beginning, right? So when you’re learning, when you’re, uh, com- going into a new job, I always say expect to have a headache for the first week because, right, your, your brain is adjusting to a very different way of doing things, and that’s normal.
That, you know, growth, uh, i- is, is not consistent with comfort. So when you’re, when you’re growing, you’re, um, you are out of your comfort zone, and it does not feel comfortable. But I think there’s, you know, there’s, there’s tranches of that, let’s say, right? There’s discomfort and there’s, like, real fear or, like, something’s wrong here.
Um, so–
Russel Lolacher: But I guess that goes…
Margaret Andrews: But I take your point.
Russel Lolacher: That goes back to what we started the conversation is, is about understanding yourself, of understanding what does fear look like? What does uncomfortable look like? What does growth look like to you? And if you’re not sure, ask people you care and love and have your back and what they see from the outside looking in of how you react to things and not look to things.
So if I’m trying to understand myself, if I’m looking to go in that direction, maybe I’m not the most vulnerable person yet, maybe I’m not the most curious person yet, but I do wanna start going down this path, Margaret, where would you, besides buy the book, not saying don’t buy the book, but I’m saying there is that needs to be that comfort level where they’re like, “Okay, this might be what I need to do.
This is the, where I need to, to focus on.” What would you recommend to, to really help with that self-understanding?
Margaret Andrews: So I think sometimes, um, and this is maybe a slightly different way of answering your question, but, you know, I, I think of three questions. The first one is what type of leader am I now? You can start tomo- you know, in 10 minutes answering that question, or you can do all those six questions, a very deep one, right?
But just start somewhere. What kind of leader am I now? The words and phrases you would use, other people would use, maybe they were on your performance evaluation. Then the se- and these are good words and not so good words, right? These are the ones, “Oh, I wish those weren’t there,” but they are what they are.
Uh, and then the second question is what type of leader would you like to become, right? What words and phrases would you like to be, uh, used about you? And then, of course, the difference is, well, what’s that delta, right? So that’s that third question. And so there may be 17 things on that. You can’t work on 17 things at a time.
So, you know, pick one or two– one, generally. Sometimes you might pick the easiest one to do, uh, and sometimes you might pick a really hard one that’s gonna have the most leverage. So, you know, it just depends on, on you. Um, so I think that’s where you, you wanna start to think about it because… And then just remember that learning is not always easy, and it is definitely not comfortable.
You’re going to feel stupid for a while.
Russel Lolacher: But what better way to help your own self-understanding than going through a thing so you can learn yourself and how you react, good and bad, to that sort of gauntlet, I guess, for lack of a better phrasing?
Margaret Andrews: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely
Russel Lolacher: That is Margaret Andrews. She’s a Harvard instructor, speaker, and author. She’s the founder of the Mylo Center, and she’s got a book I highly suggest you check out, especially if you’re trying to get your understanding in check.
That is “Manage Yourself to Lead Others: Why Great Leadership Begins With Self-Understanding.” Thank you so much for being here, Margaret.
Margaret Andrews: Thank you for having me. This has been a pleasure.