Penny St. Antoine Helps Us Prioritize Continuous Improvement
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In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel chats with award-winning organizational leader and Senior VP Penny St. Antoine on the importance of continuous improvement and how it looks different for every employee.
A few reasons why she is awesome — she is the Senior Vice President of Single Family Operations at MCAP Service Corporation, Canada’s largest independent mortgage finance company, which includes leading operations with over 200 team members across Canada. Her focus on service excellence resulted in 2 successive Contact Centre Employer of Choice ‘Gold’ awards. She was recognized as Canada Mortgage Professional (CMP) Magazine’s “Woman of Influence” and is also one of the inspiring voices in the Amazon #1 bestselling leadership anthology book, “Called to Action.”
Connect with, and learn more about Penny on Linkedin
“You know the big thing is don’t try and go for the big shiny bobble and try and solve this giant problem. That’s not going to work. Just keep working away at the little incremental steps so that you’re just constantly getting better.”
Penny St. Antoine
Russel Lolacher
And on the show today we have Penny St. Antoine and here’s why she is awesome. She is the Senior Vice President of single family operations at MCAP Service Corporation, which is Canada’s largest independent mortgage finance company. This work she does well it includes leading operations with over 200 team members, right across this great white north, her focus on service excellence resulted in two,two, two, not six, two successive contents, contact center Employee of Choice gold awards, she was recognized in candidate mortgage professional CMP, for you acronym nerds, magazine’s Women of Influence, and she’s also one of the inspiring voices of the Amazon. Number one best selling leadership anthology book called Call to Action. Welcome, Penny.
Penny St. Antoine
Thanks so much Russel. Appreciate us getting together today.
Russel Lolacher
No, I’m stoked. It’s not just because it’s 6am and 6:30am. And I’ve had so much coffee, I’m actually really, really excited about the conversation. So let’s start with the first question, Penny, which is, what’s your best or worst employee experience?
Penny St. Antoine
We recently had a new executive come in from a bank. And it was so great to have her come in, because again, great role model for me. But I love the way that she not only would give me like constructive, practical feedback, which, you know, helped me so much, but she would advocate for me, and I have to say, I’ve never had someone advocate for me, at the senior level. So, you know, and inspired me to kind of go, what can I be doing to advocate for people in my team? So I just love it when someone comes into your life like that, and like kind of throws everything around and makes you kind of go, oh, how can I do this? So that’s my best my most recent best, I mean, have lots of those examples. But yeah.
Russel Lolacher
And that’s the whole modeling the behavior that you’d like to see in the organization thing, right? There’s excellent. I mean, both of us have been leaders for a while. So we’re both comfortable in that. But even we also need those kinds of reminders. I’m, I’m worried that there are those at a hate using certain level of the hierarchy sort of thing. But we need those reminders, even though we kind of know deep down, but it’s going oh, yeah, what, how can I show up in my organization? Because, there’s this idea around leadership that you get to a certain point, and you’re like, we don’t need training, we don’t need development. It’s those frontline staff. It’s those middle management staff that need to grow in the organization, when there’s other established leaders going, could I get inspired too every once in a while? Could I see some leadership development too?
Penny St. Antoine
Exactly. I agree. That’s, that’s the best part, right? Of this whole thing. I hope I never lose that that ability or that drive to want to learn and grow. Keep giving me feedback, right? Like, I still want to have that for the rest of my life.
Russel Lolacher
Absolutely. And what a lovely segway Penny right into the topic. Oh, you’re good, right into what we’re talking about today, which is continuous improvement, which let’s lean into that word continuous, ie it never ends. So let’s first talk about you personally, how has continuous improvement benefited you in your career?
Penny St. Antoine
You know, I think the biggest thing about continuous improvement is, you know, not getting stuck in what you’re doing today. So if you’re feeling like, Oh, I’m not motivated, or I just don’t have the energy, you’re stuck. So that’s when it’s like, okay, how can I recreate myself? What can I learn today? I know when I’m learning, my brain feels like I’m on drugs, because I’m just so happy. It’s like, Yes, this is new. I’m not very good at it at this point at the beginning, but oh, it’s fun to learn, right? And then you’re just you’ve got this energy. So as a leader, I think it’s really important that you’re constantly pushing yourself out of your comfort zone. And I do talk to my team about this quite a bit. Because think about it, yes, leaders to get up and talk in front of people or do a presentation or like, oh, no, do you have to be me? No, of course, look at it as an opportunity, learn and grow. Put yourself out there. And it’s hard, I get it. But it’s just, it’s so important, not just for your career, but for your own mental health to your own ability to learn and grow. So yeah, I just, I think it’s been something that I’ve really loved through my whole career, is to get feedback to try new things. I often try and recreate myself, you know, if you get a new role, let’s try and make a new Penny. What’s the Penny that need is needed in this world? So I’ve been really fortunate to have lots of mentors and lots of people helping me throughout and I think that’s what’s helped me learn and grow too and don’t get too stuck in the muck. As happens from time to time.
Russel Lolacher
Do you think continuous improvement is for everybody in an organization? And that kind of leads into what I mentioned off the top is that sort of those higher in the hierarchy, chart leaders kind of get forgotten a bit. But there’s also that frontline staff, it’s like, I just want to learn my job at this point where they’re new hires. So when does continuous improvement become a factor in the employee journey?
Penny St. Antoine
And I think that’s a good point. I think if you’re a new hire, just learning your job is enough at that point. So I know even when we do, the lifecycle of a new hire, whether it’s a leader, or someone on the front lines, learning a technical role, that first six months to a year, it’s really focused on the basics of the job. But it doesn’t take long after that, where people are like, Okay, I’m feeling really comfortable now, like I’m kind of motoring along. And I think that’s where that development, leadership needs to come in. And that’s something we identified, we weren’t doing a great job on here, we did a great job on getting people on the job, helping them learn coaching them for that, but then that development, so maybe it’s a soft skill, maybe it’s like looking out going, this is where I want to go. Help me get there. That’s the part that we weren’t really equipping our leaders and our people. And the reason we figured out that we report this is one of our frontline team members came up with a mentorship program, a formal one. And we’re like, this is really cool. Let’s do it. So she put it all together herself. And she piloted it, people loved it so much, they were just eating it up. And we’re like, you know what, there’s a gap here. That’s why there’s this hunger for this, we need to take a step back and think about how we’re equipping our leaders, how we’re giving people the opportunity to grow after that first year. So I think that’s a really key thing, especially in this world where we’ve got people working from home or hybrid, you know, how are they going to be connected in and if their leader isn’t there, having their best interests at heart and helping them learn and grow beyond just the job. I think that’s that’s where companies are going to start failing. And, you know, we talk about losing culture. That’s why we don’t have the best interest of our people at heart.
Russel Lolacher
And I think you nailed it, too, is that a lot of organizations have these. I know, they’re called onboarding programs. But I call them like abandonment programs, or latchkey kid programs. Because we set them up to go, well, the foods in the fridge will just you know, will be over here. But you know, you go sit in front of the TV, you’ll figure it out yourself. It’s this, so much focus of resources and time on the Welcome to the organization and all this promise. And then we’re like, we’ll see you when you leave. There is no interest in this part of the journey. That is the part where people will want to stay where retention happens, where innovation happens, that relationship building in the middle, it’s all the promise of the first week, three months probation, and then take care. So to actually tie them to continuous improvement. So it feels like a no brainer.
Penny St. Antoine
Yeah, I agree. And I think it’s, it’s, it’s about that emotional connection. And it was really easy to do when everyone was in the office. Right? And Russel, you and I’ve talked about that it’s easy to walk around, see people and, and manage that way. But when everyone’s at home, you have to do things differently. And it takes a little more effort on everybody’s part, to have that emotional connection through the whole journey of an employee, and asking them how things are going, what could we be doing differently? How can we be making your job easier? Without those touch points throughout? You’re just you’re just losing them, right? It’s just a job, who wants to do just a job?
Russel Lolacher
I was listening to another podcast today pivot and they had an expert on talking about the management experience. And they one of the one of the hosts asks how his management best practices change during remote work. And the guest would like it hasn’t. It’s just become much more intentional. That’s the only difference is that you actually have to be intentional about culture, about following up about communication about continuous improvement as part of the journey. You have to know you can’t just wait around and go can I talk to you after this meeting? Or you know, other see in the hallway? It is actually leaders having to learn to what’s the word learn to be leaders.
Penny St. Antoine
That’s right, exactly. I think we didn’t realize how easy we had it before. But now like, Yeah, we actually have to reach out like on so we put together a bunch of different programs actually so that we, like formalize some of those connections like we have jabber jabber is for people who have been with us for a while, but they’re past that spot that you talked about wrestle. And it’s like, let’s connect with these guys see how they’re doing. We’ll hear their feedback, you know, and we have regular drop ins with executives, anyone can sign up, you can sign up and talk to anybody about your career about what’s going on in the company concerns you have, it’s like, how do you translate that open door policy into virtual? I think you’re right. It has to be intentional. What are you doing in your company to make sure those connections have that ability to happen?
Russel Lolacher
And what I don’t think a lot of organizations might understand is all of what you’re talking about is continuous improvement. you’re improving, it doesn’t need to be a formal job, you sign up to a formal a course that you take up to it, is that mentorship. It is that “I have a question, can you answer this question for me?” Continuous improvement can be very big and very small. So that’s actually my another question I have is what does continuous improvement look like in its many forms?
Penny St. Antoine
I hate the big thing that you mentioned, intentional, we actually sit down every year and go through engagement surveys, we have an engagement employee engagement council that we sit together, and we talk about, here’s the lifecycle. Here’s some areas that we’re not weak like that we’re weak on, here’s the areas that we’re we’re strong on, let’s keep those strong ones. But the stuff that isn’t quite there, let’s start working on. And we always talk about this baseball metaphor, we’re not trying to get to home base, like we’re not trying to get a home run. We’re just trying to get to first base over and over again. So just little incremental change. Let’s just keep working on it. So every year, we have a plan. And we just keep improving, keep improving. And we talk to the new hires, and we say You know what, we’re not perfect. We know we’re not perfect, but we want to get better. And we need you to be part of that conversation. So we want to talk to you about that. And we we have suggestion things and we go through those every month to see how can we improve. So I think you know, the big thing is, don’t try and go for the big shiny bobble and try and solve this giant problem. That’s not going to work. Just keep working away at the little incremental steps, so that you’re just constantly getting better.
Russel Lolacher
How do you tackle those employees who may be more interested in just doing their job and going home? It’s not about continuous improvement. They’re just not I liked my job. I liked the parameters of my job. They like their silo, they like their shiny box. How do you approach that?
Penny St. Antoine
Now, it’s a tough one. And in fact, when we were redesigning our training, we actually added a module in for that, because you know, it’s okay to be happy in the job you are, and not to want to move up the ladder or move to another job. We have people who have been with us for over 30 years doing the same job. And they’re so knowledgeable, they’re so efficient and amazing. It’s more about how do you engage someone like that? You know, how do you help motivate them, and help them feel part of all of this. It’s different when you’re constantly improving and moving jobs and trying different things. But if you’re someone who’s happy, we need those people to that are just happy to do the same job and do it well. So we’re actually looking at how do you motivate someone like that? And work with them? Make them feel like they’re part of the group? Because they’re your experts? Right? So how can you use their expertise to help all the other people that are coming in make them feel like they’re a valuable member? Because they are, we need people like that. So I think it’s just looking at it differently, and not looking at it like you’re trying to move them or trying to push them. It’s using their expertise and keeping them motivated and engaged. That’s really the trick.
Russel Lolacher
So intentional or program based or organic, when it comes to continuous improvement. What is getting in the way of that being an easy win for organizations to really invest in. What what are some of the blockers or challenges to this?
Penny St. Antoine
You know, I think it’s time. I think since the pandemic, I have to say our jobs have gotten a little longer in the day because it takes longer to do the things that were so easy to do before when we were all together. And I think people get overwhelmed and especially the leaders and I that’s something we have to fight I know on our team is we take on a lot. We care a lot and sometimes that leads to feeling very overwhelmed and so they We don’t do those other things that we need to be doing. So that’s something I’m always trying to monitor with my team, because I’m a bit of a driver and want to see things get done, I want to see us improve. But at the same time, we can’t take on too much. When my team gets overwhelmed, and we’re not moving at all right, like we’re just holding still, because people are just barely doing it, what they need to do. So I think, I think we are all have had to adjust and adapt the last several years. I also think other like, and I’m speaking from my personal experience, but I think other organizations don’t necessarily want to invest in some of this. They’d rather spend the money on something that that is tangible, that they can see a connection to making money. And I’m really fortunate that where I’m at my boss really values, the whole learning development, he wants to invest in it, you know, in the time where things are really slow in the mortgage business, that is not an area where codec, you know, we’re looking elsewhere for that. And I think other companies probably would cut that piece and, and cut the people that are working on that stuff. So I’m curious, I don’t know if you’re seeing that out there in your contacts. But I think I suspect that’s gonna start happening.
Russel Lolacher
Yeah, I mean, I’m not I think it’s it’s, it’s such an it’s what truthfully, this is kind of in the DNA of why I started this podcast was that I would have. So I was in the customer service space for a long time and talking about that, and getting a lot of notoriety around this in great. I really enjoyed it. But I found that most of the conversations I would have around customer experience would be great, but then I would bring up the employee experience, and then these glazed eyes, right? It was just this. Oh, yeah, I guess that’s a thing we have to do as well. And this is like, three years ago, four years ago, because customer equals money. It is an easy mathematical equation. Employees. Thank goodness, it’s changing. I noticed there’s there’s becoming more of a shift, especially with the great resignation, and talk of retention going Oh, shit, employees are important to like, it was just sort of this wake up call for a lot of organizations. But there is this still thing like, look, you’re seeing the layoffs that are happening in so many sectors right now. Rather than looking at how to reinvest how to continuously improvement how to restructure the organization, it’s the quick win. Let’s lay off a 1000 people, our stock prices will go up momentarily, because it looks good to the investors. Again, money, money, money, money, not human, human, human human. So I hope it changes but then money.
Penny St. Antoine
Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think greed drives a lot of this. And it’s discouraging to see that. I mean, there’s, you know, if you look, even in the tech sector, there’s been so much layoff, but then you look at a company like Apple that, you know, has embraced the whole ESG thing where they’re they’ve got capital put aside, and part of that is valuing their people. They haven’t done the layoffs. So like, we need more companies that are going to start thinking differently. And it’s hard. I know, it’s hard to lay off people don’t get me wrong. But that’s an easy answer to your point.
Russel Lolacher
Well, it’s so hypocritical too, because a lot of these organizations will be the first one to talk about innovation. But they’re not thinking of innovation, when it comes to how they manage their teams. It’s just a good buzzword so that they can again, money, money, money, money, money. So don’t talk to you about innovation if you’re sticking to 50 year old ways of getting rid of staff. Very innovative.
Penny St. Antoine
Yes. Fair, that’s a fair comment. Right. It’s just, it’s unfortunate. So yeah, I agree with you.
Russel Lolacher
So you mentioned a problem that I know a lot of executives have, which is they’re called leaders, but they’re in a meeting every five seconds. So they don’t actually have time to lead because they don’t have control their own calendar. They’re just basically pointed in which direction to go and what document to read. So how were they able to demonstrate continuous improvement? Because they’re supposed to be modeling behavior.
Penny St. Antoine
Oh, for sure. I you know what, I’m, I’m someone that struggles with that, like everyone else. I have to I have to admit, that’s something I’m constantly working on. I know when I look at my week, I’m like, Okay, what meetings do I really need to go to? Does this really need to be an hour? Could it be half an hour? So it’s, it’s really, for me anyways, what I’m doing is always challenging. It’s like, do I need to be there who’s going to this meeting? And one thing my team has tried to do and sometimes we’re successful, sometimes we’re not, is if it’s a meeting where we’re representing Our area one of us needs to go, you know, I trust, they’re going to make the decision or they’re going to bring it back to the group, they’re going to represent us. So we try and divide and conquer as well. But I think you have to start with managing your calendar. So that’s, that starts with me. And then the continuous improvement stuff is setting time aside for yourself to learn and grow. Otherwise, you’re not, if you don’t make it a priority, it’s not going to happen. Because honestly, once you step into the office or your home office, and start sign in, it sucks you in, right. So I think it’s really about setting that time aside. And throughout my career, I’ve done it different ways. Depending on my you know, home situation, sometimes it was two or three hours on a Sunday morning, just, you know, digging in and thinking about things I’m working on. But having that time to reflect and adjust. I’ve done it different ways, my whole career. The last few years, it’s in the morning, I spend time thinking about my day, my intentions for my day, I’ll do some reading to inspire me like a leadership book or whatever, 15-20 minutes every morning, I’ve done different things all through, it’s all been kind of based on where I am in my life. You know, and, but that’s part of the planning of setting that time aside. And I do talk to my team about that. Because I think, especially when you have young kids, and you know, it’s it’s really hard to find time for just you to invest in yourself. But it’s really important to figure that out. It’s a little easier at my stage of life, you know, where, you know, my kid has grown up now, and I have a lot more time for me. So I can take more courses, I can read stuff, I can listen to podcasts, like I have more time to develop myself and do that continuous improvement. But it’s, it’s something you’ve got to start, I tell what I tell my team is how are you investing in you. That’s what this time is about. It’s not about being selfish, it’s about developing yourself, and you’re going to be a better leader, if you take that time to pour into yourself. Because you know, what we do all day, while hopefully we do all day is hopefully we’re giving all day. Because we should be there for them. That’s our jobs. They they don’t work for us, we work for them, you gotta switch that around your head. But that means that you have to constantly be working on how am I getting better, otherwise, you’re not going to be there for them.
Russel Lolacher
I want to dig into what you’re talking about, about talking to your team. Because I love the idea of investing yourself and taking the time at the end of the day, if you’re just doing it to yourself. And you’re not telling anybody that’s not modeling behavior. Nobody knows you’re taking a course nobody knows you’re reading a book. Nobody knows you’re meditating in the morning.
Penny St. Antoine
That’s a great point. Yeah. So we actually do talk about that stuff. And I have to say, when I coached my my team, I learned just as much from them is they’re learning from me. And you know, when people say coaching and mentoring, it’s not one sided. It’s you’re learning from them, because you’re sharing your experience. And they’re sharing, there’s so use, it should be that duality. So you’re right, you’re totally right wrestle, it’s you have to be out there sharing what’s working for you, but not assuming it’s going to work for them. I think that’s the big thing.
Russel Lolacher
And that’s like almost any challenge, or problem or success, I see an organization you’re like and follow the path through communication. It’s always either happening or not happening. So when we talk about modeling behavior, we have to have a PR team around that modeling behavior to tell people that we’re modeling the behavior, or nobody’s gonna know Silo King and Queen.
Penny St. Antoine
Yeah, no, I think you make a really good point. And it’s kind of a scary point, because I worked with leaders who don’t want any feedback. They don’t want to hear from you. And when I first was in this role with my team, the one thing I had to break down because the previous leader was very much you know, when you call it dictator, this is how we’re doing it. This is there’s only my way that will shout, here’s how we’re doing it. I didn’t want that I wanted it to be collaborative, but I also wanted to hear what I was messing up and when I needed to do better. So that takes a long time to build that trust where they feel comfortable talking to you, you know, at first maybe they tell me one on one. Now they’re a little more blunt and they might say it outright in the meeting because they know I want to hear it. Because that’s the only way I’m going to get better. It’s it’s not just me reflecting on my behavior and figuring it out myself. I still need to hear it from other people. So you have to ask and you have to be willing to trust what they’re telling you and do something about it. And it’s not comfortable. But it’s, that’s how you’re gonna grow.
Russel Lolacher
Take us on a journey with me like, let’s, let’s start, I want to look at a couple phases of, of the journey of an employee from so beginning sort of middle, I guess, and in more of the leadership role. So as an example, if you’re on the front, stir first starting a job, say we’ll say to junior role, what is continuous improvement? What does it look like at that level? And then sort of at the middle and near leadership level, just some examples that some people can take away as to going oh, no, this is what this looks like.
Penny St. Antoine
I mean, when you’re a new person in any role, it’s a bit like drinking from the firehose, right. You’re just trying to cope with doing the job. But I, I love new people, because they’re looking at everything with fresh eyes. They’re not like me, who’s been around forever, don’t see it anymore. Right? So I think for them, yes, they’re learning as much as they can, they’re trying to do their job as efficiently as possible. So it’s, it’s pretty intense, there’s a lot of coaching, going on a lot of feedback. But what are they giving back, they’re giving us feedback on our processes, the way we do things. So you got to be open to listening and pulling that out. Because those are the fresh eyes, right? Those guys are like, you know, that’s like, where you’re gonna get all your really great innovative ideas. Because once you get past that stage, you’re, you’re like me, you’re starting to put, you know, all this is the way it is you just walk by that thing every day, you don’t even see it. Whereas in the middle of the journey, I think they’re more focused on how can I improve certain skills, it’s all those soft skills and technical skills are starting to go a lot deeper and learning. So it’s a it’s a different kind of improvement. And I think that’s where I know, we have, you know, fallen down in the past, and we’re trying to get that part of the process improved, where we can support people better through that. And then at the senior level, it’s funny you say that, because I think there’s a lot of great leadership training out there, I mean, tons of it. And we do really well, with the newer leaders, I think, where again, you were talking about more senior people, and, and sometimes senior people, I hate to say it, but our older people, and you kind of start to lean back on your success. And I think success is not good. You know, because it makes you lazy, it makes you comfortable. So something we’re doing with our senior leaders is coming together as a group and learning a skill together, let’s learn this together who’s really good at this, okay, you’re gonna lead it, but we’re all going to go through this together. And we’re going to practice and we’re going to learn and give each other feedback. So that’s something we’re doing at the more senior level. And it’s funny, because some of those, you know, senior people that were kind of just going through the motions, you know, you suddenly see them get really excited, and they’re sharing their, their special superpower, their skill and an engaging with all these different leaders. And it’s like, wow, you know, and they’re all learning from each other. But I do believe that it’s, again, that intentional choice to do that. We just started that this year, and is they are enjoying it so much and loving it. But we never did that before. Right? And I think when you get into those senior roles, and you know, you were obviously successful if you did, and you’ve been with the company for long, or in different roles for a long time, but it’s, it’s hard to motivate yourself, because what you were doing has always been successful. So why should you change? Right? Like, I that’s, that’s why I would say at the very beginning, I don’t want to ever get like that I want to keep learning, I want to keep growing. I don’t want to get to the point where I’m stuck in my ways. You know,
Russel Lolacher
I think it’s good too for those those the those at the top leaning on their, their lazy success, for lack of a better term. I think having them learn in that setting a new skill and they fail at it like they’re it’s doing something that they’re not good at, but not only not good at it not good at it in front of everybody else. It makes them humans it makes them the person that doesn’t hide in their office all day and only comes out for meetings. Be a person that is kind of shitty at some stuff and that’s okay too. I love that humanizing of it in their can even at the end of their journey. me still learning that too. One thing I want to bring up though from the beginning level, from an onboarding, what are your thoughts on, I get it from continuous improvement, I get it from I’m learning my job, leave me alone, my God, I’m overwhelmed by the firehose. But there is some value to end seeing a bit of a roadmap, because a lot of work, a lot of staff will come in, they’re learning the job. But they also don’t know that there could be a path for them through the organization. And I don’t know if organizations do that well enough to go, you know what, from here, you could go to all these other places, if that’s up to you and up to us, to help you with that continuous improvement to get to those spots. It just inspires a bit. And it shows that even though you’re not there yet, you could be one day. And I think a lot of organizations missed the boat on mapping out the roadmap or wrapping up the jungle gym, because people nothing’s a straight line anymore. But I think there’s a potential there, too.
Penny St. Antoine
I agree. Like we had roll progressions for within departments. So you know, we’re excited when we got those going. So that someone comes in, they can see how they can progress. But it was just within that department. And the piece that we’re missing was exactly what you said, Russel, we were not looking across, like I want to go over here. How do I get over here? I don’t know. How would I even like, I don’t even know people over there? Who can I talk to what courses should I take? What should I be working on? How do we even let them know? I’m interested? Right. So that I think that’s really difficult to do something we’ve tried to do. And we’re still working on it. So we have all the roll progressions, and we can share, but it’s the how do we connect you with this person over here that’s in this different department. So we’ve been putting videos online, we’ve been putting course criteria, you know, if you’re interested in this kind of role, these are the kind of courses you should take. Here’s what the job is about. We used to do job shadowing, when people were in the office that was easy to do, you’re interested in working over there, well, we’ll set something up for you. And when you can sit beside that, why you can’t really do that easily now. So I think that’s an area Honestly, we’re still working on that. But about two years ago, we realized we we were siloed. Like we didn’t have that cross. And it’s not easy to do. So we did a we actually did a job fair, virtually, which was really crazy. But people could go around and jump in different rooms, and say you’re interested in that department over there, you can jump in there talk to them, they had all these resources to give you So here’s some of the, the, you know, the jobs we have and descriptions. But here’s courses to help you in these jobs. Here’s how you could you know, progress to this, this job and this skill set. But that was just the beginning. And we realized after we did that job fair, like we have a long way to go. So that’s something we’re still working on. But I agree that’s that’s, that’s a big challenge for companies.
Russel Lolacher
How do you empower employees to take this on themselves? Absolutely. Organizations have a role. And they should have a role. But employees also have a role to play in their continuous improvement journey. How do we empower them? How do we connect the dots that it’s also something for them that they have to take control of?
Penny St. Antoine
You know, it’s it’s a weird balance, because we want to be able to provide the tools and the information. But at the end of the day, whose countability is it? It’s there’s 100%. I think I’m 100% responsible for my career and my growth. So I’m the one that has to go out there and figure it out. But we should be supporting them in that. How do we how do we get them to realize that it’s their accountability? I think it’s, you know, you talked about this before, it’s our talk track, what are we saying? Are we telling them, Hey, this, that’s something that should start, you know, when you talked about the employee journey, that has to start right at the beginning that and so that’s something that I actually I do a presentation right at the end of their new hire training, and it’s called. It’s all about a learning community. And being a culture that’s about learning. And so we talk about it then. But that’s why we’ve just started training our frontline leaders to talk about this because that was one of our gaps. When we did our employee journey mapping. We weren’t talking to people about their career journey, and how can we support them in this? What is it they want to do? Like what are you interested in? Tell us? I think it’s got to start right at the beginning, but it’s got to be through the whole lifecycle. Hopefully you’ve got someone advocate Waiting for you out there, right and being that coach and supporter. But it doesn’t always happen that way. And that’s unfortunate. I think that’s why a lot of people leave because they don’t think that the company has their best interest at heart, or they try and do it on their own. And they get stalled somewhere along the way. And they just can’t make it happen.
Russel Lolacher
I think encouraging employees to ask questions, but you also and sort of get curious about what’s out there. But as to your point earlier, and you didn’t, we didn’t say it explicitly, but my God, it’s in there, the psychological safety of it all. Staff need to be able to ask questions and have leadership not get offended, or that’s a stupid question. You should know that by now. They, if they’re not able to be curious about other people’s jobs, about what he what do you do, I think there is a big problem in retention. And I think there’s one of the things that pissed me off the most is the whole idea of state interviews, I hate them. I hate them hate them, him. And I’ll tell you why. Because they’re branded, you don’t want staff to stay, you want them to thrive, you want them to grow, you don’t want them just to be a bum in a seat, regardless of geography you want them to, right, you want them to thrive and grow and contribute to themselves and to the organization. So it’s those, those check ins that like you were talking about this presentation is about the opportunities, but then checking in with them. Remember that presentation I did six months ago, we should talk about that again, in a year, blah, blah, blah, it’s can’t be that abandonment, at the beginning of the onboarding, we have to hope that they thrive. So what other tools or processes either you’ve put into place, or you’ve seen or you’ve heard of that can help with that continuous improvement?
Penny St. Antoine
Yeah, you’ve mentioned some really good ones. For sure, the surveys, we haven’t done pulse surveys, we do surveys throughout the year, at like regular scheduled time, we’re actually considering doing pulse surveys now. So we’re, we’re getting a tool and we’re looking at it because now my team has grown actually to almost 500 bio. I know I think I need to update my bio. But um, so it’s getting harder and harder. So it’s like, we need that feedback. But the one thing I said to my team was okay, it’s great. We’re doing the survey, and then that we’re looking at this, but okay, what are we going to do with the information? Like, you realize you’re creating work for yourself, that’s great. But like, we actually have to action this stuff. We’re not just gonna go Oh, wow, that’s interesting, like, so I think we’ve do these Java, Java sessions with people, I kind of mentioned that. That’s, that’s really important. Because it’s in it’s funny, because I started them out. And I remember I was doing them in all the different groups. And I would go back to the leaders of the group, and I say, Okay, here’s what your group saying. And they’re like, Well, why didn’t they tell us? Why did they tell us this? We could have done something about this. I’m like, did you ask? No, why wouldn’t they just tell us? And I’m like, you gotta ask, you got to ask, you know, make them feel safe. And you got to action it now you got to do something about this. Right? So I think it’s, it’s finding how to do that in a way that works for your organization. And I think you talked about psychological safety as well, which is how you build trust. That’s really important. Do you? Do you have fun with your team members? Or is it all just work? You know, even if people are at home, you could still do events online, you can still have some fun together during company hours. Imagine that. There’s all kinds of things that people can do, whether it’s sending notes, it’s, you know, if someone’s going through something, I think this is something I really love about MCAP where I work, someone is going through some hardship, and we all have that, you know, what are we doing as a team to support them? People here are late, they start cooking, they bring stuff over, someone didn’t have a place to put all the food that people made here. So we bought them a freezer, together, we band together and we bought freezer and delivered it to house and then we put all the food in the freezer. All of that stuff like, you know, community, are you involved in the community? Are you supporting people like, I don’t know, there’s just so much that we can do to help people feel safe and help them feel like that were involved together as a team. And and that’s all that’s all a part about continuous improvement.
Russel Lolacher
The fact that you’re blurring the traditional lines of what people will think continuous improvement is skill, acquiring, it’s skill hoarding, it’s skill collecting. What about mental health? That’s a huge part of improvement in the workplace. So I love that you’re mentioning that when bringing up community and that it doesn’t need to just be a How can I move around in the organization or the next rung in the ladder? But there? Is this improving your self worth improving your self esteem, and so forth. So I love that.
Penny St. Antoine
Yeah, I agree. And that mental health thing we could we could talk hours on that at all.
Russel Lolacher
Oh, that’s a whole other thing.
Penny St. Antoine
I agree. Yeah.
Russel Lolacher
How do you know what’s working? If you’re putting in programs into place around continuous improvement supporting stuff, we’re moving away from just skill setting, we’re getting into mental health… what’s success look like?
Penny St. Antoine
You know, when we first started down this road, years ago, because I first learned this lesson, when we did the customer call center, employer of choice. And we got a lot of feedback there. And one of the biggest things that I got as feedback is we didn’t include them in our decision making. And that was like, Yeah, ouch. Okay, you know what? They’re right. So, I, intentionally, as you said, went on this journey of how can we build this culture where people are engaged, they’re involved. And it’s, it’s a real true paper culture. And I remember I got a coach. And she said, Penny, it’s gonna take you five years change this culture? And I’m like, right? No way, we’ll get there before that, right? No, she was right. And the, and the year that I figured we’d finally made the jump was we did we do surveys, multiple surveys every year. And you know, you’ve got all the indicators, you can follow the indicators, they tell you one stories, no doubt about that. And they everything was increasing. That’s great. But it was the comments. So the talk track that we had all been talking all that time. And it wasn’t us saying anymore, it was them. It was all the team members, or the whole team was saying the same thing that this is why I love MCAP. And they were saying these things that we had purposely tried to build, and how much they loved it and how it changed their life and how they tell everybody in the community, why they love working for MCAP. It was there and all the comments. And I was like, That was five years. And it finally showed up, right. But it was every year continuously working on all those little things and putting them in place. And it took all that time. But that to me was my point where I was like, wow, it’s not me anymore saying this are my leaders. Like everyone’s saying this now that this is this is our culture. This is why people love working here. And for me, that was the the ultimate to actually see it in writing, like person after person. Yeah, we’re not perfect. There is some other stuff in there, too. But that was how I knew. I mean, you can talk about turnover, you can talk about all kinds of metrics. But I think it’s what people say that matters.
Russel Lolacher
Well, if they say it and the action of them leaving, let’s listen to them first before they have to feel like they have to make that action.
Penny St. Antoine
Don’t do stay interviews. That’s my takeaway. (laughing)
Russel Lolacher
So Penny, what’s one simple action people can do right now to improve those relationships at work?
Penny St. Antoine
So I think as a leader, especially, the biggest thing I see is, is people who think I’m the leader, I’m the boss, you know, I’m in charge. If you switch it around in your head, and think instead, you’re not the leader, you’re there working for them to make their job easier to help support them to get rid of roadblocks. I think that gives you a better mindset to be there for them. I think sometimes especially we talked about this, the higher you go. It’s I’m the big boss. You know, you know that syndrome.
Russel Lolacher
The hippo Yeah. highly important person.
Penny St. Antoine
Yeah. And I hate it when I hate it. When I see people acting like that, especially senior people. I think it’s, you know more about serving and, and being humble, and being a real person and being vulnerable and sharing that, you know, I’m not perfect, but here’s what I’m doing to help myself get better. Here’s some of the mistakes I’ve made. Here’s what I learned from them. You know, nothing pisses me off more than seeing a leader act like they’re better than everybody else because of their title. And fact I hate titles. I hate people using them. So I’d really encourage people to try and change that mindset and catch themselves if they’re starting to go that way because it’s so easy. It’s a slippery slope, but that would be my thing. Change your mindset, flip it around your head. And then think about what would I do differently if this was my mindset?
Russel Lolacher
That is Penny St. Antoine. She is the Senior VP of single family operations at MCAP Service Corporation and a bit of an employee advocate. Thank you so much for being here, Penny.
Penny St. Antoine
Thanks, Russel. It was great. I really enjoyed it.
