How Your Worldview Shapes Your Leadership
Home > Podcast
“Because when we get stuck in our stories and we start thinking that people are against us or sabotaging us, we are the ones that suffer with that.” – Barbara Boselli
In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel chats with leadership trainer and coach Barbara Boselli on how our worldviews can impact our leadership.
A few reasons why she is awesome — she is a leadership trainer, coach and keynote speaker with 15+ years of corporate experience, including Google and L’oreal. She’s a certified teacher with SIYLI Global, Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute – mindfulness-based emotional intelligence course born from Google. And she’s the force behind bnow Consulting, which harnesses emotional intelligence alongside mindfulness to transform workplace culture
Connect with Barbara and learn more about her work…
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
Russel Lolacher: And on the show today, we have Barbara Boselli, and here is why she is awesome. She’s a leadership trainer, coach, and keynote speaker with 15-plus years of corporate experience, including with Google and L’Oréal. She’s a certified teacher with SIYLI Global, which is Search Inside Yourself Leadership Institute.
It’s a mindfulness-based emotional intelligence course that was born from Google. She’s also the force behind Be Now Consulting, which harnesses emotional intelligence alongside mindfulness to transform workplace culture. And she’s here to talk today about how our worldview impacts our leadership. Hey, Barbara.
Barbara Boselli: Hi, good morning
Russel Lolacher: Good morning to you. Um, yeah, worldview, identity, such an impactful thing when it comes to leadership, good and bad. But before we get into that, I have the first question I have to ask all of my guests, Barbara, which is, what is your best or worst employee experience?
Barbara Boselli: Okay, great question. Um, so my very first real job out of college, uh, I think it was both my best and my worst for different reasons. Uh, I had a, a boss who was one of the most brilliant people I’ve ever met in my life, and he had a very unique leadership style. Uh, in one hand, he made some bets on me, and he trusted me in ways that I didn’t even trust myself.
He put me in situations where I didn’t feel necessarily I was ready, uh, where other people, his peers maybe didn’t feel I was ready, but he, he, he helped me prepare, and he got me in those situations and really stretched me and helped me gain my confidence and helped me get outside of my comfort zone. So that was really great for my development, development, especially as I was kind of, like, new to the workplace.
So that was great. Uh, in the other hand, he was a person who wasn’t a great communicator with us, with the team, and, um, uh, to be quite frank, we were kind of scared at him, like the team was scared at him. So, you know, in one hand, he really kind of advocated for us and, and put us on the spot, but in the other hand, it wasn’t the be- he didn’t create the best kind of work environment for us.
So that’s why I said it was the best in one hand, but also was really hard in other aspects.
Russel Lolacher: How do you reconcile that as a leader? Because half of it is going, “Look at all this opportunity.” The other half is like, “I don’t wanna go to work today because I don’t wanna inter- interact with this person.” I, I, I see how impactful both of those are, but that can also erode after a while, uh, your confidence or your interest in the role.
How did you balance that?
Barbara Boselli: Um, well, I– Well, there are a couple things. One is I really, um, tried to attach to the parts that were positive, and I, I loved the work that we were doing. I loved the team that we had. We actually had a really strong team, and I really appreciated the opportunities that he gave to me. Um, on the other hand, it was my first real experience, so I didn’t know very different, right?
I, I understood some of these issues that I found even more when I moved to a different company with a different manager, and I was… A-and, and he– our relationship was so different that at first I was even, like, s-thinking it was strange, right? ‘Cause I was used to one thing, and then I had something very opposite.
Uh, but it was all I knew at the time
Russel Lolacher: I, uh, uh, you’re… That’s not one of the first times I’ve heard that, especially per- people early in their career going, “I didn’t know any better because this was my first, you know, introduction to leadership. I thought this was normal.” What I think is a missed opportunity is a lot of organizations defining leadership, going, “This is what leadership is.
This is how our leaders show up.” And then as a, as a new employee, you’re like, “But, but mine doesn’t align with that. What do I do with that information?” Uh, what a missed opportunity. I, I say that because definitions are a big part of this show, is that we use phrases all the time and never seem to want to define them, so we don’t ever have to be accountable to them.
So I like to start every conversation with sort of like laying the groundwork here a little bit. First, so for you, I’m curious, since we’re gonna be talking about worldview and fact versus reality, fact versus fiction of what we tell ourselves, how do you, Barbara, define worldview when it pertains to ourselves and how we perceive things?
Barbara Boselli: It’s how you make meaning of what happens. Um If, if you really strip things down, anything that happens is neutral in many ways. For example, it’s raining, right? The rain is neutral. It’s just rain. If I am someone who I’m planning to go to the beach and then suddenly starts raining and my worldview is a little bit of someone that tends to be a victim and feels like everything goes wrong for me, then I’m gonna look at the rain and say, “You see?
Just because I was going to the, to the beach, it starts raining. It always happens like that.” So now I am making meaning of the rain to confirm my story that, you know, I’m the victim of the world and things never work out for me. So, you know, I think it’s really about how you make meaning of what’s happening around you
Russel Lolacher: And I think from that example, it’s also to be very clear that your worldview does not have to align with reality. It doesn’t have… It doesn’t, or, or does it?
Barbara Boselli: Um, well, the wor- your worldview is the reality that you create. And each of us have a very different way of creating our reality, because that’s based partially on our nature, right? Our biology, our genes, the ways, the ways we tend to be. But also a big part of it comes from nurture, which is, you know, the experiences we’ve had, the people we interact with, especially as we’re growing up, and how we start making meaning of the world.
‘Cause when we’re little kids, everything is a b- blank slate, right? Everything is new, and we are trying to understand. And then we start creating these rules to make sense of the world, because otherwise it’s just really hard. We, we wanna be efficient. We wanna have, you know, we wanna decide this is good, this is bad, this is right, this is wrong.
So it makes it very, like, a lot easier for us to deal with the situations. And each of us have different ideas of what’s good, what’s bad, what’s right, what’s wrong, and what’s safe, what’s dangerous
Russel Lolacher: So good or bad, how does having your, what, bringing in your own worldview as a new leader into an organization, maybe even just moving from team to team, what is the impact of that, for lack of a better term, baggage that we’re bringing into an organization? Uh, I, I’m seeing the good and the bad here.
Barbara Boselli: Yeah. Um, I think that the best leaders are the ones that recognize that they have their own worldviews and they’re open to understanding what are, what, where other people are coming from, right? They are curious. Instead of assuming… Let’s say you are a leader and someone in your team sends you a, a nasty email because they’re really upset about something, right?
If I’m living from my own world and I’m not open to understanding what’s going on for that person, how are they seeing the situation, I can just react to that email, right? And say, “This person is, um, you know, not being a good employee right now, and they, you know, they shouldn’t be talking to me like that.
That’s disrespectful,” whatever. But if I understand that this person has a whole story going on for them, there’s something there, and really, like, am able to, to have some empathy and try to understand their point of view, I might come to understand that there’s something really frustrating them that I’m not aware of, right?
And, and I have an opportunity to help them as a leader. Or, uh, that they are feeling totally under the water because th- there’s so much on their plate. So I can, I, if, if… I think the, the big thing for leaders is to be able to get out of their own stories and get curious about what’s going on for the other person so they don’t make assumptions
Russel Lolacher: Is it as it happens? Are you taking like journal notes as going, “Well, yesterday they believed this, so I should be paying attention to that”? Like, how are we noticing differences in… ‘Cause diversity’s coming up a lot for me in this because of how our geopolitical, uh, where we grew up, who our parents were, as you mentioned, that nature-nurture piece.
How do we keep track or become aware? Is it just burying them in questions, or is it, you know, systematically taking notes?
Barbara Boselli: think it’s really by being present in the moment and being curious, right? I, I think the moment we, we s- start making assumptions about the reason why people are doing things or saying things, that’s when we get in our story, and then we create that disconnection from the other person. So it’s, it’s really about being present and being curious and, and really trying to understand in every moment the other person’s perspective. that answer your
Russel Lolacher: It does, uh, ’cause I’m worried that somebody, a leader sitting here with a notepad going, “Interesting, interesting. Yes, mm-hmm, I totally get that. Absolutely. Interesting.” Because we’re removing it from delivery, which is a large piece of a lot of organizations, where it’s all about do the thing, create the service, deliver the service.
This is the human piece. This is the, the, the, the piece that really dives into the more, um, y- leadership, to lack of a better term. Management versus leadership. Would you recommend we do this as a check-in? ‘Cause I’m also trying to think of consistency, ’cause worldviews change over time, or they get super hardened.
We see the world the way it is right now, and people are definitely diving into their points of view and being extremely rigid about it. How do we address that?
Barbara Boselli: You know, it’s gonna sound repetitive, but I feel it’s the same answer because if we look at the world right now, right? Uh, let’s talk… I- I’m not gonna get into the
Russel Lolacher: Yeah, political don’t. Yeah, please don’t
Barbara Boselli: Well, we have two extremes, right? People feel this is right and this is wrong. In the end of the day, people who are very extreme about their politics, they all want the same thing.
They want a country where people have a good live life, where people can express themselves, where people can, uh, be safe, right? Most people have the same objective, but they have very different ways of how do we achieve that. And we stay in the conversations in the differences as opposed into the, what we have in common because we get stuck in the stories that, you know, I’m right, you’re wrong, and you are and that.
But if we open up to the possibility that most people are well-intentioned, most people don’t wake up in the morning and say, “Today I’m gonna be, you know, a jerk. Today, I’m gonna be, uh, I’m gonna boycott someone.” Like mo- And even at work, most people don’t do that, but we might perceive that when we’re in the other end, right?
And let’s, you know, talk about work again. Let’s say someone said that they were gonna send you a report by Wednesday and then they don’t, right? We then, sitting from where we are in our story and our priorities and what’s important for us, we might think, you know, that person don’t care about me because if they did, they would send me the report or that person is trying to sabotage me, whatever that is.
And most of the time that is not true. Like that person has their own life with whatever is happening. Maybe their kid is in the hospital or maybe, you know, they just had like their boss asked for something urgent, whatever. But instead of getting curious, trying to understand, right? You know, I noticed you didn’t send me the report.
What’s going on? Do you need help? Like, is there anything… We, we, we get into that kind of reactive mode and we believe our own stories that they’re trying to sabotage me, the whatever, and that creates more problem and less collaboration and disconnection and all of that
Russel Lolacher: It’s so tied to identity as well, which is something we’re so proud of, of this is who I am, I’m being my f- I’m bringing my full self to work. I’m, you know, I’m this, this person, good or bad, take me as I am. In your own work, do you see that how much of that is such a resistance that it’s hard… Like, how can we get them out of that mindset?
I get about being curious, but we have to get them to be curious about being curious. Like, there is that sort of how do we, how do we push ourselves, much less our teams, into sort of getting to that point? Because again, I’ve seen people just be able to not function because something does not align with the identity that they’ve created over the last 20, 30, 40 years.
Barbara Boselli: Yeah. That’s a really good question, and we do get attached to our identity. You know, our egos, they are here to try to… They, they don’t like change, they don’t like uncertainty, uh, they don’t like anything that’s new. So they really try to keep us stuck, you know, in our own rights. Um, also, when we challenge the way we think or the way we even are, it might feel like, um, like telling ourselves that how we’ve been thinking all along was wrong or, right?
That we’ve been doing something wrong or not. And I think the best way to think about it is that we are always doing the best we can with the thinking that we have at the moment, right? Again, none of us wake up in the morning and, and deliberately… I mean, some of us might, but most of us don’t wake up in the morning and deliberately say, “You know, today I’m really gonna be a jerk.”
Right? We are always doing what we think is best based on our information and our thinking, really. So when we, when we accept that, we can also accept that our thinking might evolve over time. We might learn new things. We might gain more wisdom. And with that, it can enable, enable us to start being open to the possibility that the way we’ve always seen something may not be the only way or the right way.
And actually, it might not even, even be, um, beneficial for us. Because one thing that’s important is when we give people the benefit of the doubt, when we get curious, you know, we’re not even doing this for them. We’re doing this for us. Because when we get stuck in our stories and we start thinking that people are, you know, against us or sabotaging us, we are the ones that suffer with that.
Russel Lolacher: Mm-hmm.
Barbara Boselli: ‘Cause we get angry, we get resentful, we get upset So, so it’s, it’s, you know, it’s for the relationship of course, but it’s, it’s really helpful for us to change that narrative
Russel Lolacher: Are there, are there red flags we should be paying attention to? ‘Cause most of us will go at work intending all the positivity, but we may be doing more damage than we realize based on this rigidity around our worldview and maybe not, you know, connecting with our team members. Are there things in the workplace as leaders that we might need to pay attention to ourselves or for our teams to go, “Okay, you know what?
Maybe I need to start getting curious. Maybe how I’ve been doing things and how I’ve been thinking isn’t working.” Anything to pay attention to?
Barbara Boselli: I mean, there are a lot of things we could talk about. From a language perspective, um, when we use words like never, always, like, that are very definitive, that might be a red flag, right? This person never, you know, uh, arrives on time. This person always, uh, I don’t know, like goss- whatever that is. ‘Cause, ’cause we are a lot of things, so say that someone always or never does something, it’s kind of labeling them and, a- and creating a story around them, honestly.
So that’s one red flag. Um, the other red flag is a sign that a leader is not being curious, that’s not being open, that’s not being, uh, kinda really listening to the team and to people, is when people stop sharing. When they stop giving ideas, when they stop asking questions, is because they feel that they, the environment is not open to that.
There’s no psychological safety in a team because the, the leader usually is so right on their ideas, and they, they have these rules, and they really don’t listen, and they criticize when people give ideas, that, uh, people just stop sharing. Not because they don’t care, but because they don’t feel safe doing it.
So tho- those are a couple things and Um, yeah, I think a- as far as like signs, those could be some good… Oh, and another thing that’s really important, when we are in a relationship, right, with an employee or with a colleague, and something happens and we feel in our body that we are getting stress, we are getting triggered, we are feeling angry There’s a story there.
You know, according to, um, CBT, cognitive, cognitive behavioral therapy, um, our thoughts leads to our emotions, our emotions define our behaviors, and our behaviors lead to the outcomes. So everything starts with a thought. So again, uh, let’s say you, you send someone a message and they don’t reply to you. You know, you might have a thought, “They are ignoring me on purpose.”
That’s your thought. That’s your story. Because the fact is they didn’t respond to email, and there might be a million reasons why they didn’t respond. They didn’t see, they lost their phone, they have an emergency at home, they saw when they were driving and they forgot to respond later. There’s a million reasons why they may not have responded.
But then we create the story, “They’re ignoring me on purpose.” That’s the thought. The thought is gonna lead to emotions. I get upset, I get frustrated, I get, um, resentful. The emotions define our behavior. So now I am ghosting this person. I am ignoring them. I am gossiping about him with other people, whatever that is.
And that will lead to the outcome. So the outcome is a culture where people don’t trust each other, where, you know, there’s like corridor talk, whatever that is. So when we feel something that’s like yucky, right? The, the anger, the resentful, that’s because there’s a thought behind that, that feeling, and that’s the opportunity to stop and then separate.
What’s the fact? They didn’t respond to the email. What’s the story? They’re ignoring me on purpose. And then you can question that story. How true is that? I mean, do I have real reason to, to think that? Or maybe there’s an opportunity for me to get curious, right? And then text them again and say, “You know, I noticed you didn’t respond my, my last text.
Can you respond now? What’s going on?” Whatever. Most of the time people is gonna say, “Ooh, sorry, I just forgot.” And then they will respond and, and then it becomes a non-event, right? Uh, uh, as opposed to becoming like this snowball effect. Now, now I am upset because they didn’t respond and then I’m passive aggressive, and now they notice I’m passive aggressive and they are back and, you know, it just becomes this huge misunderstanding
Russel Lolacher: Thank you for that breakdown. Really appreciate it. Where I’m hearing a word that keeps coming up for me is it’s funny because before we used to throw out the word fact like it was black and white. That also seems to be changing because facts that I notice as facts versus what you think are facts seem to be coming under question.
Again, I’m not getting political here, Barbara. I’m just saying that people are… They’re wrapping fact into story almost interchangeably, and we’re having a hard time separating that in the workplace because we wrap emotion into it. We wrap that worldview into it. Is there anything we can do to get a little better about separating that?
Because I, I’m getting from what we’re talking about, we understand what facts mean, but that’s not always the case, and especially when we’re trying to help others
Barbara Boselli: It’s a really good question. Um, I believe it’s, it’s, like, really just trying to be as neutral as possible. Um, I don’t know if there’s a formula for that, honestly. It’s more like a, a common sense thing. What– When we’re not sure, we can always ask other people, right? You know, “This is how I’m seeing this is what happened.
Is this how you see it too?” Right? To test if that’s really the fact or if that’s my interpretation of the fact. And, um, I mean, one could argue that if you take it to the extreme, nothing is really a fact. Everything is even interpretation, right? Even a color, when you see something is red, that’s because someone defined that that’s red and…
Right? But, uh, w- we don’t need to get to that level of philosophy, right? And just kind of try to be as factual as we can. That’s all we can do.
Russel Lolacher: Yeah We’re not alone in this though, or we shouldn’t be alone in this as we’re trying to understand how our worldview impacts. Feedback is something I’m thinking about. Advice. Is there a way to sort of co-create a worldview when it comes to the workplace? Because you’re bringing yours in, they’re bringing theirs in, they’ve got their own diverse…
By they, I mean the team that you’re responsible and accountable to. Is there a way of, of course curiosity is in there, but you also need to create an environment that allows for it. So is there, is there a step forward there?
Barbara Boselli: You know, feedback is a really great example because Some people take feedback as a growth opportunity, as a gift really, right? I can get better. That’s when they don’t take it personally. Like, they don’t equate, you know, you could be more organized with you’re a failure, right? Uh, some other people take feedback as a personal attack, right?
When you tell them, “You could be more organized,” then they immediately go, you know, “I’m a failure. I, I am not fit for this job.” Uh, right? So it’s, there’s a big story that can be attached. More often, like the same feedback given to two different people are taken totally different. So it’s not really about the feedback, it’s about the story that people create a- around the feedback.
And so, um, ways to give feedback that I feel that are very effective is when you really separate the feedback from the person, right? As a leader, you’re not talking, you are, uh… It’s, it’s not about you, it’s about something you are doing. So you are being disorganized when you… And then give very specific examples, right?
When I ask you for an update on the project and you don’t have all the information to give it to me, that’s when I feel you’re disorganized. So being, being… Separating the person from the feedback, right? It’s not about you, it’s about something you are doing or the way you’re behaving. And also being specific with examples and, and things that the person can use to understand that it’s things that they’re doing and not who they are as a person. Does that answer the question?
Russel Lolacher: It does. It does. Uh, so I’m thinking we, we’ve been very focused on our teams, but, uh, understanding that there’s no such thing as work/life, right? We are bringing that worldview from our home life. It’s… That worldview is also impacting our relationships at home. So is there things we could be doing with our partners, with our families, with our own personal networks that we could bring into the workplace?
I’m trying to, I’m trying to address these problems before they become problems in the workplace.
Barbara Boselli: You know, uh, you are 100% right. You know, wherever you go, there you are, right? You, you, you’re the same person. And I think that the, the answer is very similar, is in the end of the day is about being present and aware in your situations, at home and at work. When… And sometimes at home is even harder because we have an emotional attachment to the people in our lives, and that can really cloud our judgment often.
So being present and taking this moment to separate fact from story. And I even, I have a little, like, framework that I use for this, which I’m happy to share, that’s called the ASK framework, A-S-K. And so ASK is, uh, the, the A is about really awareness. When you s- when you feel again that you are being triggered, as I said before, that you start feeling those emotions and you start feeling like you wanna, you know, have that knee-jerk reaction of getting back to the person, that awareness is the first step.
You’re noticing it. You notice that. Then the S is for separate fact from story. When you notice that, you stop and are like, “Okay, what is the fact here? What is the story here?” And you can start separating, and that separation kind of helps you understand what’s creating that emotion, what’s creating that behavior for you.
And then the K is for kindle into curiosity. It’s really, again, you know, now that you understand that the fact there is a story, what else could be true? What, what else might be true here? And then you get into the, you know, asking questions and, you know what, one other quick tip here is when we ask questions, um, the word why can feel, can make the person feel like you are kinda judging them.
So anytime you can replace a why with a what or, or another little word there, it can be helpful. So instead of like, “Why didn’t you respond to my email? Why didn’t you, um, I don’t know, put your clothes in the, in the laundry basket?” Uh, you can say, you know, “What got in the way?” Right? “What, what was going on for you?”
And that really helps people open up to, to be transparent and, and real when they’re answering.
Russel Lolacher: I, I think to your point, being in the moment. See, so when you’re with your partner and you’re having a disagreement or an argument and you have a moment where you’re like, “Oh, there’s some self-awareness here that maybe I need to show up differently in how I relate to my partner,” I think there’s an extra step based on how we’re talking here that’s like, “Okay, do I take this to work too?”
Is this– ‘Cause this is how I’m relating to a partner and somebody I like and stuff, but do I also take aspects of that in how I relate in the workplace? ‘Cause in that moment you feel like it’s just here, it’s between these people, as opposed to, no, maybe this is a bigger theme. Maybe it’s not, but at least being in the moment to recognize that you could be taking this mental roadblock, these way of looking at things, to a workplace situation that could also be addressed.
It just doesn’t have that emotional charge that we have with a partner. So it’s just, I guess, I guess doing our own research in the moment emotionally as it’s happening.
Barbara Boselli: Yeah, that’s, that’s a, that’s a great point. And in my experience, you know, working with my coaching clients and, uh, in my own life, the people around me, as I said, wherever we go, there we are. So if we’re, if we’re behaving a certain way at home, uh, we, we’re very likely doing the same at work. Probably in a different scale, right?
‘Cause we kind of tend to be more, uh, composed at work. But the wheels spinning in our heads are, are, are the same. And, you know, I, I often have clients that, uh, hire me to do leadership coaching, executive coaching, and then more often than not, we’re talking about their relationships with their parents or their spouses because everything reflects how we are and again, how we see the world, the lenses through which we see the world.
Russel Lolacher: I’m thinking back to your first story when we kicked off here, talking about your, one of your first bosses, why they were fantastic in one ways and horrible in others. So their worldview of what a leader is, is was very different than what you needed in the moment. Looking back now as a coach, looking back at that leader, what would you be telling them about their worldview and try to navigate going, “You suck here.
You’re amazing here. How are you the same person?” So how do you, how do you coach that?
Barbara Boselli: Um, as a coach, I, I, I wouldn’t tell my client that they’re great or they’re horrible at something. That’s not
Russel Lolacher: I’m not a coach.
Barbara Boselli: place, right? Uh, y- you know, as a coach, what I would, what I would support the client in doing is trying to understand how certain behavior is helping them or not, right? What are the consequences of their behavior?
Like, because if he came to me and said, “You know, my team is, uh, not listening to me,” whatever it is, and then we would, we would explore, like, “So what, what do you think is causing that? What, what’s the, the, the cause and effect of the way you are talking to the team, or you are listening to the team, or you’re interacting with the team?”
Um, so it would be… It’s always like an exploration and helping the person identify what works for them or not. Because again, what I think is right is not necessarily what they think is right. It’s more about understanding their behavior is impacting their success, their life, and if it’s not, then there’s an opportunity to change
Russel Lolacher: And that’s great from a coaching perspective, ’cause truthfully, you’re an other. You are not in the organization. You are outside looking in. Team members do not have that luxury. They may have that same boss going, “Their worldview does not align with me.” ‘Cause leaders need leaders. Leaders, good leaders need great leaders.
So if I’m a member of that team and I’m looking at that boss, h- do I, how do I manage up or do I jump ship because our worldviews don’t align? How do we… ‘Cause there’s a, there’s a different power structure here that might have a different way of impacting how we influence or even try to
Barbara Boselli: Yeah. Well, as you know, I’m sure, uh, our manager, our leader plays a very key role in our work satisfaction, in our work effectiveness, and all that. And I think that when you have a leader that, you know, i- it’s not aligned for you, you can… S- in some cases there is an op- the, the per- the leader is open to, to listening and maybe you can give some feedback in some ways, depending on the leader.
But sometimes it’s just not a good fit, right? And it’s, it’s hard to change that. Um, but, you know, unfortunately, it, it is a, it’s a big, um… You know, when we don’t have a great leader, it’s hard for us to be successful and be fulfilled in our work. So a- a- and I’ll be honest with you, when The, the, the higher in the, in the chain and the more experience these leaders have, um, unless they are people which are, in my opinion, the best leaders that are really open to reshaping how they see the world and have good self-awareness, it’s really hard to, to change them.
I’ve worked with leaders who, you know, I’ve been hired to, to work with them because they were really great at what they did, but they were not necessarily the best leaders, and they had their very set ways, and the, the change that they are willing to make is very minimal because they’re very set in their own way.
So you cannot change someone that’s not willing, or I mean, we cannot change anybody, but you cannot help someone change unless they are willing to change, really. And not just saying they’re willing to change, but they are deeply in their core willing. And in my experience, great leaders, they are the ones that know that what will drive them forward is not certainty, is not being right, but it’s being open and curious and willing to learn and change.
And, you know, one thing that I find very interesting is when I deliver training to teams, right? There’s always, you know, those people who feel like, “Oh, I already know this, and so I don’t really need to pay attention, to listen,” and those people that are really engaged. The, the… More often than not, the CEO, the top executives are the ones that are in the first row taking notes because these are the people that although they, they have, you know, in theory, they, they know more than everybody else, they’re also the ones that are willing to learn and to change and to reshape the way they see the world.
Russel Lolacher: Yeah, and, and I totally understand, like, f- from your example there is there’s an executive who’s curious, and the reason they’re successful is because they’re constant learners. But there’s also that equation, and I hear this a lot and I’ve seen it a lot, where executive don’t change because they’ve been rewarded for their worldview.
The e- the culture and the leadership ecosystem being hypocritical because they talk about what leadership is, but then they reward, “Oh, well, you’ve ne- you’ve been rigid, but look how much money you’ve brought in, so you must be a successful leader.” So why would that person ever change? They keep getting promotions.
They keep getting more money. Why, why do they need to now? So I would love that latter example to be more the, the par for the course, but it seems far more the former. Seems to be more the, the consistency. It seems to be more that malleable curiosity tends to be in that middle management, junior executive piece where they’re like, “I know leadership can be better.
I want to know how.” I, you know, just sort of taking that step a little further. So that draws me into the, the culture piece, because we could be doing all this work. I took Barbara’s course. She trained me. I know how to handle worldviews. I know how to look at my own. And then they work in an organization that has a completely different worldview, that has a completely… rewards completely different worldviews. And we’re looking at that going, “How do I… Do I run for the hills, or do I start thinking maybe my worldview isn’t the right worldview, and maybe compromise a little too much?” How do, how does, how do you address a culture?
Barbara Boselli: So, um, culture is something that’s alive in the organization and for, and in a big extent it is defined by the leadership. Um, so if you are not in the leadership team and you want to change the company culture, it’s gonna be difficult because again, uh, you know, we look up, right? And we follow what’s being set by the top.
Having said that, I have seen managers that are very successful in creating like a micro culture within their team. Even though this is not the company culture, they create a safe space with their teams where people collaborate, they’re curious. So, you know, that, that’s what I, I have to say. And, you know, to your question, how much do you change your own worldview?
I think in the end of the day, we each have our own values- And some of us are more aware of them than others, and some of us choose to align our lives to those values or not. And so it’s really a self, uh, awareness thing and a self-reflection. So it’s up to each of us to, to, to notice, like, how does it feel for me to work in this culture where people are cutthroat or people don’t have a voice?
Am I okay with that or not? And again, there’s some- to some extent we can change, at least in our own, like, micro team. But if it gets to a point where you feel really that, you know, you can’t… we really cannot be our best selves if we’re not aligned with the culture of the company, and that’s not good for anybody, right?
So i- it’s a, it’s a personal choice, like how much you wanna, you wanna, you know, just be okay with being in a culture that’s not aligned for you or not. And of course, I mean, for some people, they feel like they have less choice ’cause they really need that job and, and all. That’s all that plays a part.
But, um, culture is a, is a big thing and it’s a big part of, uh, as you know, I’m sure, um, how happy people are at work, how effective they are. Um, I don’t know if you heard about this study that was done by Google years ago. It’s called the Aristotle Project, where they, they looked at 180 teams across the organization to understand what– why some teams were more successful than others.
What were the key factors of the most successful teams? And they looked at different factors, including who was in the team, the seniority, how, what’s the objective, how the team was structured, if people were going bowling together, like all the different aspects. And what they found was that the top, the top item that the most effective teams had was something called psychological safety, which is, you know, people feeling comfortable, uh, expressing themselves, sharing ideas, asking questions without fear of being bullied or reprimanded, right?
So, um, and this is all about the culture ’cause this is not something we can create with a, you know, a plaque on the wall, a sign that says, “Our values are X, Y, and Z.” That doesn’t work. You really need to build a culture where people feel like they can ask questions, they can get curious, they can innovate
Russel Lolacher: I love that you’ve connected here as we’re talking, uh, with that worldview with values. Because I think looking at it like that takes away some of the rigidity and makes us a little more open-minded. So bear with me here. Is that, so our worldview might be, here are our traditional roles of male, female, when it comes to the family and how they interact and who wields power, who brings in the money.
These are, this is my worldview of how these relationships should be. But if your value is just family, that’s a l- that could be interpreted many different ways. So if we’re moving away from our worldview and looking more at the value, then we’re open-minded to how different dynamics… ‘Cause family’s different, but family is family after all.
So I feel like if you can shift from worldviews and the rigidity of a lot of those worldviews to the, I don’t wanna use the word vagueness, but a little bit more of the generalities that values usually represent, I think there’s room there to allow yourself to shift away from being a little too resistant and a little more open
Barbara Boselli: Yeah. Yeah. That’s a, that’s a good way to look at it, for sure
Russel Lolacher: So somebody listening to this going, “Okay, I hear you. Barbara’s talking about curiosity. She’s talking about, you know, how our worldview can butt up against other worldviews, but we need to approach it differently.” What… Besides hiring you to do a class and do this, like, we need to get to the next step. We need to even be curious about being curious.
What would you recommend somebody do, say, even tomorrow to go, “Where is worldview impacting me and those around me?” Like, what is that first step to get them in the direction of talking to somebody like you?
Barbara Boselli: Um I think that first step is, is the awareness, for sure, right? It’s noticing when you feel triggered, and I’ve, I’ve said this here before but I’m gonna repeat ’cause this is really the, the takeaway, right? When you feel triggered in some ways, when you feel irritated with someone, you feel that you’re angry, you’re upset, notice what is the fact, what is the story?
Just noticing that ’cause … And then, you know, you might You might notice that that story may not be the total reality, right? Just giving the person the benefit of the doubt and, uh, being open. And I, I know I’m giving, like, a lot of steps, but it’s really about that first noticing. Why is c- what’s creating my upset here?
Is it really what happened, or is it the story that I’m making around what happened? Because often we bundle those together. We don’t see that there’s a story, there’s the facts, and there’s a story. We just think that there’s, that’s just one thing, because the way we see the world is how the world is for us.
But just having that awareness that this may not be the case s- opens the door for new possibilities there
Russel Lolacher: So I wanna wrap it up with one more question for you on a personal level. How have you been able to even personally yourself, you have a worldview, I have a worldw- how have you been able to shift your own? Like, was there something you did prac- like journaling, meditation? What was it for you that allowed you to have that, you know, dip your toe into that awareness personally?
Barbara Boselli: It’s practice, right? It’s really practice and I don’t wanna get too, too, like, in the weeds here, but the way our brain works is we create habits of the mind. By thinking a certain way over and over again, behaving a certain way, those become our default ways. The, the, our neurons, you know, they, they fire together and they create connections that make those default ways of doing and thinking just normal for us.
The more we start practicing something different by just bringing the awareness in the moment, or even after the moment, and shifting the way we see the world, we start rewiring our brain. So it just becomes more, um, natural that we just get in the habit really of w- like, “Wait, I’m thinking this. W- what’s fact or story?
Like, what am I telling myself?” So to answer your question, it’s practice, and it’s practice in the moment, or it’s reflection, like you, you asked about journaling. I do journal, right? Sometimes about something that happened already, or I just kind of think about it. And, uh, and the more we practice, the more second nature it becomes for us.
Russel Lolacher: That is Barbara Boselli. She is a leadership trainer, coach, keynote speaker, and the force behind Be Now Consulting. Thank you so much for being here, Barbara
Barbara Boselli: You’re welcome. Thank you for having me