How to Lead Through High Pressure Roles in the Workplace w/ Dr. Janna Koretz
Home > Podcast
In this week’s episodes of Relationships at Work, Russel chats with licensed psychologist Dr. Janna Koretz on how to lead through high pressure roles in the workplace.
A few reasons why she is awesome — she is the founder and a licensed psychologist at Azimuth Psychological, a Boston-based therapy practice focusing on the unique mental health challenges of those in high-pressure careers. Her insights have been featured in various publications, including the Harvard Business Review, the Wall Street Journal, BBC, Business Insider, NPR, CNBC, MSN, and the Boston Globe. Additionally, Dr. Koretz has contributed articles to CEOWORLD magazine, discussing topics such as psychologically safe work cultures. She also wrote a children’s book on anxiety “Heroic Henrietta: How One Unicorn Overcame Her Anxiety,”
Connect with Janna and learn more about her work…
LISTEN AND SUBSCRIBE
“They check all the boxes, they do all the things, they get to where they’re going, they’ve arrived and they’re really miserable. And that’s super confusing and very scary for them.”
Dr. Janna Koretz on Achievement Burnout
Russel Lolacher: And on the show today, we have Dr. Janna Koretz, and here is why she is She’s the founder and a licensed psychologist at Azimuth Psychological, a Boston-based therapy practice focused on the unique mental health challenges of those in high pressure careers. High pressure will be a key word for this conversation.
Her insights have been featured in various publications. Harvard Business Review, the Wall Street Journal, BBC, Business Insider, List, list. Additionally, contributed articles in CEO World Magazine, discussing topics such as psychological, safe work cultures. And my little fun tidbit about her that I like the most is this children’s book on anxiety called Heroic Henrietta, how One Unicorn Overcame Her Anxiety. Hello, Janna.
Janna Koretz: Hi. Wow. You did your research. You found that one, it’s a long time ago.
Russel Lolacher: Big breaths. I knew I had a lot to get through.
Janna Koretz: Yes.
Russel Lolacher: So interesting we’re gonna talk about high pressure roles and I’m curious from jobs that are always high pressure, jobs that are high pressure once in a while, really curious how to lead through those things. But before we get to that, you have to not get off the hook. You get the question I ask all of my guests, which is what’s your best or worst employee experience?
Janna Koretz: Oh, there’s so many to choose from. I think for, in terms of worst employee experience, I think I, there are a couple stories that come to mind and I think they all get grouped in the bucket of entitlement. I think that is a personal pet peeve of mine that I don’t care for. And I think, we’ll, I’m sure we’ll get to it, but I think a lot of people dunno how to communicate well in the workplace.
And as the leader, I find I’m try to be very flexible around that because that’s my job, right? And to help people with that. But every so often somebody will say something and I am not interested in hearing it because it is quite entitled. And so, when people, when I… and short example is I, and she doesn’t work with me anymore so I can talk about it.
She, this one employee of mine said, she had a lot, she had just started, she had a lot of time in her calendar. We were just getting her clients and I asked her to do something that was very relevant to her career that really would help her in general. And she just looked me dead in the eyes and said, that seems like a lot of work. I don’t really wanna do that. I’m not going to do that. Well, I dunno if it’s optional, as the leader then you have to be like, well how am I going to respond to that, right? And so, that’s a tricky situation for anyone, but there are a lot of instances where people have asked me for things or demanded things of me or refused things that I find are pretty inappropriate for workplace setting.
And that is where I personally struggle. So those are, those tend to be what fall into my worst employee stories.
Russel Lolacher: And how do you combat that proactively? Like in my brain, I’m a communications nerd. And we’ve, you’ve already even mentioned, we’ve been in, what, three minutes here, and you’ve already mentioned how important communication is. Is it setting boundaries right outta the gate so that there’s no confusion later on? Or does that matter at all and people are gonna jump to their own conclusions of what they’re entitled to or not?
Janna Koretz: I think it’s both. I think that setting an appropriate sort of workplace expectations from the beginning is important, and that’s actually something that has been a growing edge for myself. This is how accommodating the company can be. This is how, what is not optional and like really being boundaried and showing examples of that from the beginning. So when people start to push boundaries in the beginning, you can say, no, actually that’s not how it works here. In a nice way and kind of make sure that those expectations get really really solid in the beginning so that those situations don’t arise in the future because they know that it’s not something that is possible in this particular work culture.
I think a whole other conversation for another time is also like generational expectations of the workplace which are different. And so I think some of that stuff happens anyway. And I’m now of the generation where I can say the younger generation is so different than my generation. And so that has also been something that I think, we read a lot about Gen Z and how that works and what they, what is appropriate to them or what their expectations of life is a lot different. And so I think if you’re a little bit older, like you’re gonna hear some of that anyway. That’s what it’s gonna feel like, even if that’s not the intention all the time. And so I think you can do a lot of work at the beginning to lay that foundation, but I think in the end, like you’re never gonna get away from requests that are interesting.
Russel Lolacher: I love that as we’re getting older, I’m feeling like we’re giving longer answers, academic answers to ‘kids today’, like it’s…
Janna Koretz: Yes. Kids today. I just wrote an article about kids today actually. It’s, yeah, it’s true.
Russel Lolacher: And it’s a struggle ’cause there is a lot of work we have to do that is strategic, leadership, proactive boundary setting. And then there’s the other side of it that is we’re human and we go, can’t you just get this? Like, why is this complicated? It’s right there in your job description. I don’t understand. Yeah. I hear it’s a struggle. It’s a struggle.
Janna Koretz: It is a struggle. And one thing I will add, which we don’t need to get into, but I think is interesting is if you think about how Gen Z grew up with like social media, iPhones, like all these things that we didn’t have, they grew up in a very self-centered, focused culture. What do I look like on the internet? What, how many likes did I get? What do I need to do to be an influencer, right? It’s all about me. And so it’s not really that surprising if, and then you add in like COVID and work from home and all these things where they’re not necessarily learning professional skills anyway. So you get people into a situation where their personal culture. It’s like any other culture, right? Their personal culture is more self-centered than maybe perhaps other cultures in the past. That’s not really their fault, but they don’t necessarily know that, that’s, they don’t, they haven’t been told how to interact with us, right? And we haven’t been told how to interact with them in a way that is helpful.
And so of course there’s just these, I don’t know, rifts, I guess. Because that’s how they’ve been, that’s how they’ve been taught their whole life.
Russel Lolacher: And add helicopter parents on top of that and add parents that are enabling that behavior and not setting those boundaries. It’s a ecosystem of, for us, having to figure that out and figure out how to deal or not, deal’s a horrible word, how to interact and understand these other generations.
Janna Koretz: Well also help them succeed, right? They’re not gonna succeed if they like are in these work environments where they’re doing things that older people don’t like.
Russel Lolacher: And I’ve said this before on the show too, is it’s not always just a Gen Z problem. I’ve seen more entitled Boomers seen sometimes with Gen Z.
Janna Koretz: Oh, yeah.
Russel Lolacher: They just wanna, they wanna work. They just have particular understanding of how they wanna work and way it works. And I’ve seen older generations, gen X, me included, going, but that’s not how it’s always been done before.
So it’s just this, it’s this cycle of trying to better understand who we’re working with out there. Look at this transition. Watch this.
Janna Koretz: Yeah.
Russel Lolacher: When the things happen where people have different understandings and definitions of things eh, we’re getting into definitions now.
Janna Koretz: I’m with you. Let’s go.
Russel Lolacher: And what you would define as high pressure and what I might define as high pressure could be very different, especially based on generational lines. So for the basis of this conversation, how would you define a high pressure workplace?
Janna Koretz: I don’t think you’re gonna like my answer, which is, we’re, I’m not actually defining it at all, right? The people that come to see us, they define it for them. Does it feel high pressure to them and what does that mean to them? And that doesn’t necessarily mean the same thing to everyone. I mean, certainly we have sort of the stereotype of what you and I might consider high pressure, right?
Like we have, people are trying to make partner in corporate law. We have people in private equity, right? And. Finance, all these jobs that people sort of stereotype into high pressure careers because they are. But there are a lot of people who work, the work culture in America is terrible.
So a lot of it doesn’t actually matter what industry you’re in, because most of the time now it is a high pressure situation. Even if you take, we read all the time about like Amazon warehouse workers, right? That is an incredibly high pressure job that is almost impossible to succeed at, and people need those jobs and so they tolerate or they try to figure it out, it doesn’t really matter what industry or what it is? I think in general we have this kind of low level, high pressure culture of work, and then it sort of depends on how people relate to their work, what other factors are involved, their financial situation, all that.
Russel Lolacher: So by not defining high pressure, ’cause again, we go back, it’s a personal thing and high pressure… you have to treat it as per the person and how they’re looking at it. But does that mean you’re not defining low pressure jobs or a threshold between the two? If we’re not defining the upper, then I feel does that mean you’re not defining the lower?
Janna Koretz: Because what we’re doing is helping people with their symptoms, and so it sort of doesn’t matter like how I would define it or what is a low, or is a high pressure career or whatever. It’s like they come in and they say, I feel like really stressed out because I feel pressure from this, and this.
And so that is sort of the crux of it. And so, I know that like defining things actually really important. I really like to define things, but also as a therapist, there are a lot of things that are undefined or gray including this sort of, I think what we’re talking about, right? Because it is subjective. In my opinion.
Russel Lolacher: So what are we misunderstanding about high pressure? Is it the fact that if you have a big paycheck and you’re top of the organization, those are the only places that are high pressure? Well, them and air traffic controllers. Is that is that ’cause I can understand a lot of people, you talk about Amazon workers, I’m nodding, I’m totally agreeing with you.
But it’s not top of mind of what I would think is a high pressure job.
Janna Koretz: I think people, again, like when people hear, when they think about what we do as a company, like at Azimuth, right? Yes. We have the people that we, you, I, everyone would typically consider to be in a high pressure career, right? Like C-suite people, VPs of consultants, all this. But there are, it is anybody and everybody maybe of academia.
We do have people in healthcare. We have people in we do have, we, I don’t know how many of them are now, but we have had people who have worked in like Amazon warehouses or jobs like that, which arguably in some ways are more high pressure, in different ways. And so I don’t think like how we understand it, like what is top of mind almost isn’t as important as how people feel when they’re at work, if you will.
Russel Lolacher: So what are symptoms of high pressure? They’re coming to you for reasons. So how is this showing up?
Janna Koretz: A lot of it shows up in burnout, apathy, a lot of high anxiety, unable to put work away, career enmeshment, feeling stuck. A lot of people have a lot of financial obligations one way or another, and they can’t get out of the job that they’re in. Or a lot of people. I think we see a lot of people too, so it’s more of a story, less of a symptom. They’ve had a track that they’ve been told is really important and they check all the boxes, they do all the things, they get to where they’re going, they’ve arrived and they’re really miserable. And that’s super confusing and very scary for them. And there’s an existential piece to that.
A lot of people sometimes will have a company acquisition or they’re laid off and they have nothing. Like, they don’t even know what to do with their time. Like they can’t even get out of bed because all they’ve done is work. All they know is work. That’s their whole identity. And so now they’re in this existential place where they are very confused and they’re upset and they start drinking.
And so there’s sort of subsequent things that happen as well. So those are the heavy hitters I think. But it really can manifest in any way. I mean, it’s stress in general, right? Trauma, things like that manifest in all kinds of ways. But I think those are the, typically when people come in, that’s sort of how they’re experiencing things.
Russel Lolacher: I think I know the answer to this, but I’m super curious about when it comes to high pressure, is it the pressure we put on ourselves or is it the pressure the organization on the individual.
Janna Koretz: Both.
Russel Lolacher: That seems… both. Yeah, I figured. handle high pressure things.
Janna Koretz: Right, right. And so this is people always, well, there are some high people, like there’s some people who thrive in that environment. And certainly there are, and I think the people I think of first when I think of that are physicians. ER doctors for example. That’s where they thrive. That’s the place. Like they don’t wanna be in pediatrics. They would be so bored. They wanna be and that is where they thrive and that’s okay. And it’s fine if it’s not problematic for you. But most of the people in this world, pressure like that is problematic for them. And that’s why they don’t choose things like being an ER doctor, for example.
Russel Lolacher: Do they know it’s because of a high pressure situation or are they just going help me do my job better? Is it, is there self-awareness around that piece or is it just my job’s hard? I need to meditate and journal more. Fix me.
Janna Koretz: There’s usually some insight and I would say most of our, most of our clients are really smart and they know they should meditate and eat better. And a lot of them have been to therapy before and have heard that, right? And part of the problem is they can’t. Because their life does, lifestyle doesn’t allow for that.
And they can’t just quit their job or they can’t just work less, or they really don’t have time to cook. Like they’re, these are all really true facts about them. And so they feel very they feel like therapy or like wellness is not possible for them. When really it is. It just, you have to do it much more creatively in smaller increments.
And I think people typically when they come in, they know there’s a problem. Something is a problem for them. Whether it’s their job or themselves, like maybe they’re not sure. But they definitely, most of the time people don’t say oh, I have this anxiety fix me and everything will be fine.
Sometimes that happens, but oftentimes there’s like a, at least some kind of awareness of the situation or my environment or this other person at work, or like my wife or something else is also contributing.
Russel Lolacher: And I’m not poo-pooing the journaling and the meditating. I am a huge fan of both of those things.
Janna Koretz: Let me tell you, as somebody who is not a natural journal, journaler or whatever, or somebody Yes. And not somebody who is a naturally a meditator, these are not things that come naturally to me, nor was I very interested in them when I first heard about them. We now have a journaling app because I am so on board with journaling and values journaling and all of this, because it’s really helpful, but also you have to get past the stereotype of what journaling is.
And you have to get past the idea that it has to be every day, and you have to log your whole day. And you have to, it’s, especially now with social media, there are all these people online that tell you all these things that you have to do, and it’s just not right. For everything. But definitely not for wellness stuff either.
Russel Lolacher: So I hear you saying that you have to get used to these things. You have to embrace certain things to be better in high pressure for yourself and for the organization. So what kind of mindset are you suggesting that people approach or embrace at least to better handle these high pressure situations?
Janna Koretz: I think flexibility is very key. I think a lot of people are committed to doing things in a very specific way. They have to get to B and they have to get do 1, 2, 3 to get to B. Well, you don’t though, and maybe if you did 5, 6, 7, things would be a little bit easier for you. And I think, so flexibility is very important.
I think also expectations, I think people, a lot of expectations of eradicating negative feelings, which is not the goal, nor is it possible. And so the idea is not to feel really happy all the time. It’s well, that you are in a tough job and you do things that are very hard and things are gonna be difficult, but how do we make that more manageable for you? How do we increase your distress tolerance? How do we give you some better coping strategies? How do we be making you more of a resilient person? And then figure out if this is actually the place for you. And those two things are different. So I think from a mindset perspective, I think flexibility, creativity are really important.
Russel Lolacher: Do you approach it differently for say, a leader or someone in an organization that is dealing with constant high pressure versus dips and valleys like valleys and peaks, I guess is the better way of saying it. Because it’s not always like that, but other times, like an ER doctor, your adrenaline is always there.
It is always at that point. Do you approach it differently that way?
Janna Koretz: It depends. It depends on the person because also some people do experience the ebbs and flows as constant, even though they might not actually be literally constant. It might take people a while to recover from tax season or whatever it is. And I think there’s, for some that constant stress is the way that they thrive best or it’s what’s most familiar to them. And so in some ways they gravitate towards that and taking that away is very difficult. And so it just really depends. I, so I don’t think we necessarily approach it one way or another based on their self report in that way.
Russel Lolacher: Do you find that some people might not just be right for high pressure jobs, even though they went for it because it was the golden ring, brass ring, paid more money and like it was, to your point earlier, it was the next step in the ladder. That’s what they need to do. And I’m kind of curious how they handle that information. ‘Cause a lot of people, that’s to your point also, it’s their identity is to, I start here, I end here.
Janna Koretz: Right. I think. I would describe yes, but I would describe it differently. I would say that I think a lot of people’s values are misaligned with their work, and so it might not be that they’re not cut out for it. I think it’s that what they’re doing doesn’t matter to them in the way that it needs to matter.
That is what makes the pressure and the constant working, that’s kind of what beats them down over time. Is part of it is the values piece. And so we do a ton of values work for that reason. And that also helps people start to figure out, well, actually my identity might be something else. For internally.
So it’s not like someone saying, well, this can’t be your identity anymore. And then that’s not really how it works, right. So I think that’s how I would think about that question a little bit more specifically.
Russel Lolacher: When people are doing that self work. I wanna go back to the diversity piece we kind of kicked off with generations. Does it work for everybody? Because I mean, obviously everybody has a different approach, definition of high pressure, expectations from home. Because like you have to have the job. That pays for our rent, our mortgage, our car payments.
What do you mean you’re gonna take a different, less paying job just so you have better mental health? We have a lot of different diversity when it comes to this.
Janna Koretz: Right.
Russel Lolacher: Do we have to look at things differently in, I mean, as a leader looking at ourselves and our self-awareness.
Janna Koretz: Well, I think you have to think about it also as just because the information is new and different and true maybe doesn’t mean your actions have to be drastic and right now. Because a lot of what we end up doing is, helping people fi they figure out this path is not for them. They figure out, let’s say just like classic example, I guess you have a partner at a law firm and they realize actually like community is really important to ’em and they’re doing corporate law.
And so maybe they are thinking more about like community law or being a public defender or maybe something like that would be ideal. Right? But now they have four kids, they’re taking care of their elderly parents, their kids are in private school, whatever, and so they can’t necessarily do that.
But how do you find that community piece somewhere else? Could you maybe do, for example over time, not necessarily tomorrow, but thinking about, okay, what’s in the middle there and how would we get there slowly. Could you maybe go in-house somewhere and then in the time that you’ve now found, because you’re not at a big law, you can, volunteer at church or something, right?
Or like where else can you find those values? Can you get a little more of it at work and then get it somewhere else if that’s what you need to do financially for your situation. And if that’s the case if a shift is possible, how do you do that slowly and mindfully so that you’re not just, like dropping off the planet and, taking 50% pay cut or whatever it is. There’s a lot of ways, and that’s why I say creativity and flexibility is important and this, I think people are really interested in, I need the information and I need to make the change now. And it has to be right now and it has to be all at once. And that’s just not how life works. Right? I mean, I wish it did too, right? For my own self. Like that would be wonderful, but it’s kind of a slug, you get the information, then you gotta slowly make a plan. And then you have to figure out what the timeline of that plan is. And sometimes it is quick depending on your situation, right? But sometimes it’s not.
But there’s always a way to improve your situation, even if you have financial constraints or location constraints, debt, whatever it is. There’s still lots of ways to do that.
Russel Lolacher: I love that you talk about shifts. But even more so that I think there’s a self-awareness piece where a lot of people will shift through their careers and don’t want to admit it. Like for instance, they’ll do a values exercise in their early twenties. I. And they’re 45 and going, those are my values. I’m like, you have not reassessed.
You have four kids now. You live in a different city, you or a small town now. But they don’t take the time to reassess who they are as people and their responsibilities and they’re, because they’re, so, this is what I want to be when I grow up. This is my identity. They don’t look at the ecosystem around them and how it’s changed who they are. So their priorities might be different, but they’re still focused on the brass ring.
Janna Koretz: All the time. All the time. And I think because we don’t live in a culture where people are expected, told, given permission to think about their values at all, right? People just assume the values of those around them. They assume the values of their workplace. They just, this is what I’m doing.
And to your point over time, right, people change, like life happens to them, they gain perspective. That’s what like age and wisdom is, right? They, you gain this perspective, you gain information. Like a lot of people will talk about like these traumatic events that happen to them over time and how that changes their perspective of what’s important, right?
So when you’re 20, you can’t possibly have all of the same values that you have when you’re 45. It just, it’s almost impossible. Some of the core stuff will still be the same, right? Because it’s who you’re as a person, but a lot of it is different or can manifest differently ’cause there are a lot of things that happen in life that really change people forever. So I think that’s a really great point and I wish that people had more permission or even knew to do that at all.
Russel Lolacher: And not think lesser of themselves because of it. Like having that idealistic approach to the person they want to be, not realizing that foundationally it can change to the person they want to be, could be different as well. But yet we feel like we’re failures if we make those shifts because we didn’t get that thing we wanted. We didn’t get to be the cowboy or the astronaut. We wanted to be, when we were eleven.
Janna Koretz: Yeah. Or even on a smaller scale, I can speak to this personally too, like I lived in a pretty homogeneous place growing up and, everyone sort of was a certain way. And when I, it wasn’t until I went to college and I met people who were really different than I was. It’s oh. I might actually believe that instead. And like sort of reconciling that and realizing you can still be a good person, have different beliefs than your family of origin. And lots of good people exist who believe all kinds of things and like discourse is important and all of that stuff, right?
But so even on a smaller scale, it has nothing to do with work. That is a transition that a lot of people go through anyway. And then if you add like the layer of, and complexity of like achievement and work and all of that gets very complicated.
Russel Lolacher: And it’s much better to do the work progressively, as you mentioned earlier, than it is as a shocking you burnt out, you got fired, your identity’s so wrapped up, and you have an existential crisis of who you wanna be now that you’re not, you’re allowed to be that person you thought was the that high pressure person, successful person. You’re working with people through their journey. So it’s not like to your, to you, as you mentioned, this is not a checkbox exercise. This is journey that they are having to deal with high pressure situations, high pressure work. So how are you with your clients and those in high pressure jobs when they go back to the workplace?
Because they have to interact in the same high pressure environment that is not changing even though they are. So what are you recommended when they go back day to day, week to week, month to month, that they approach their environment now as they’re going through the journey.
Janna Koretz: Well, I think it happens kind of organically because as people gain insight, I. As they realize they have options and as they get excited about what those options could be because they realize they’re important to them, the stress at work is different to them. It feels different. And so yeah, we talk a lot about how to just cope with difficult coworkers and communication and missing promotions and the logistics of being in a place like that, but it tends to naturally start to be more manageable because it doesn’t, it becomes a little further away from them.
Russel Lolacher: Well, you bring a good point. You are going back to as a leader, that is high pressure, but they’re getting the help to manage this high pressure. Guess what their team is not doing. Also taking that learning so, or their bosses or their colleagues. How does a leader go back working on themselves, getting their self-awareness of how to manage that stress back into a, their team who are not learning the same things? How did they approach that?
Janna Koretz: That’s a big task and I think that’s a roadblock a lot of people run into. And I think it depends also where you are in the organization as well of how to go about doing that. But I think for, and you know this is true for, in my opinion, leadership in general, leading by example is very powerful.
And I think that being like leading by relationship is important and being appropriately open when you feel like that’s helpful is useful. And so I think, and also if you think about this is a silly example, it’s like the boss who comes back from vacation and they’re like, kind of, they’re like a little more relaxed and then two days later they’re back to what they were doing. But I think like that first day back, I think we see a little bit of that more like from a longevity perspective, when people, like they’re having these shifts and so they’re, I’m just using calm as an example, but let’s say they’re able to be a little bit more calm through these situations, right?
And even if they do nothing else, like their team picks up on that. Like interpersonal dynamics are really obvious to people like unconsciously, if you will. So it rubs off on the team. And then if, and then on top of that, if you’re, if you’re helping two people on your team navigate a conflict and you’re, they’re in your office let’s say you’re like, okay, well, let’s, and you’re calm, right? You’re co-regulating with them. And so what you do with children, you’re, and then so they we’re like, oh, I don’t actually have to be angry about this. We can just have a conversation and here’s how we do that. Oh, okay.
Like that’s actually better. It’s easier. And so then you know you’re teaching skills by, as they come on, you’re also teaching them by just being yourself. And then if you wanna make a more conscious effort, you can then implement things that you are learning from a cultural perspective that just much harder and it takes a lot longer and requires a lot of buy-in and stuff like that.
Russel Lolacher: Where does communication come into this? Because in a high pressure situation, you are probably being very quick, short, bursts. ’cause it’s all about emergency. It’s all about addressing things right away. But if you’re trying to get out of that mindset, even in that environment, communications with our teams and our colleagues might need to shift as well.
What does that look like?
Janna Koretz: First, I like to tell people you need to decide what’s urgent and what’s important, because a lot of things are not urgent, but we treat them like they are. And so that gets like everyone, all frazzled. We’re making these quips at each other , like all these things. But really, yes. Okay. So we have those situations, but those are actually pretty small in number, especially if you’re doing your job right.
And so, and that I say that with, there are some, caveats that of course, but in a lot of times that’s true. But also, and this has been a personal journey for me as well, like I’m a very direct person. I am a really reactive person. And so when I started leading people and being a leader, I had stopped doing that because what I quickly realized is that was not helpful to myself or to other people or to my organization because most people don’t hear directness well, especially if it’s not a hundred percent positive.
And so what I had to start doing is saying yes, I hear you. I appreciate what you’re saying. This is what I’m hearing you say. Let me think about that. I’ll get back to you by the end of the day, this person would leave and then I would be able to like rant in my head about it call a friend, whatever.
And then think about okay, what is the problem I need to solve? What is the outcome I need and how am I going to talk to that person to get that outcome? I do not wanna get in my own way, and so how do I do that? And that line of communication as a therapist, I can do that, but for many people they need to be taught how to do that because it’s hard to communicate with people, especially when you guys are on different pages or for example, a lot of people say I have this really difficult coworker. They’re very rigid. It’s okay, well they could just be a rigid person, or they’re probably really anxious and and if you, and so if you think about them as an anxious person and communicate with them that way.
Let’s see what that, what, how does that help your relationship or how does that help you get things done? And oftentimes it’s really helpful because that person doesn’t then become defensive because they’re being spoken to oh yeah, that is really hard. Here’s some options. What do you think?
It feels more collaborative whatever the communication shift is, right? So it’s also how it’s like theory of mind. It’s how you understand people. It’s giving people the benefit of the doubt. It’s understanding your own reactions and then the actual language that you wanna use is a lot of what we teach people.
I mean, there’s some key phrases like… it’s very therapist, ‘ I’m wondering if’ is a great way to start talking because you’re not saying, one thing. ‘I’m wondering if’ is very like, disarming, right? So there are like phrases such as that, that we teach people, but we’re also teaching them about other people and we’re teaching them other things.
If that makes sense.
Russel Lolacher: Absolutely. I will use a Mike Tyson quote.
Janna Koretz: I love Mike Tyson quotes. He has some really good ones
Russel Lolacher: It’s great to have a plan until get punched in the face.
Janna Koretz: Until punched in the face. That’s a favorite quote of mine. I love that quote.
Russel Lolacher: And this sounds all great, but I know there are people going, I am too busy for this.
I don’t have time to think about, what are you, ‘I’m wondering if’. I’m like, I am having to put out 17 fires and you want me to take a step back. I have to lead through a fire, figuratively, or reality. How do you talk to people like that?
Janna Koretz: Yes. I mean, that’s all true and, it all depends on how you, I mean like you want things to be different. You have to do things differently and no one has the time for that. I hear all this all the time, as somebody with young kids, like there’s all these books about how you talk to young kids, right?
And one of the things they tell you is you’re supposed to be funny and like playful and everything’s supposed to be a joke, and the monsters are coming to eat your socks or whatever. And it’s that’s how every parent is no one has the time for this. I need them in the car. I don’t need this bullshit. Whatever. But in the end of the day, like if you just do that, your kids will be in the car in five seconds and then it’s all over. No one’s mad, no one’s angry. You’re actually saving time. And I think the same thing applies to the workplace. When you do things differently, like it’s, you just want people to go away and do their job.
I understand that, but they’re not like, they’re not, right. And so how do you as a leader, get them to do that? So that everyone’s happy, nobody’s quitting, you’re not paying for new people, they’re making more money. No one’s losing their job. You know all the things. And it does, as a leader, it requires you to be different.
It requires you to do things that are irritating. It requires you to take a step back and do things differently ’cause otherwise you’re getting in your own way. And that’s why they come to us in the first place. So, no, you don’t really have time, but you don’t really have a choice. That’s just like where we all kind of land.
And it doesn’t have to necessarily be this giant shift all the time. You don’t have to be everyone’s friend and be like really therapist with them all the time. But there are moments that you’ll learn to do that, which are really helpful and that actually buys you a lot of grace in all the times that you don’t do it because you’re not gonna do it all the time.
Parents are not always gonna be like eventually one day you lose your shit and you’re like, get in the fucking car. Right? And so it’s no different at work. It’s like the more times you don’t do that, the more efficient everything is, the happier people are, and then the less people are upset when you don’t do it.
Russel Lolacher: The only extra lens I want to put on that though, and I’m curious your thoughts, is we’re not allowed to make mistakes. We can’t make mistakes. It is a high pressure situation. People’s lives or money is on the line. It is so to the, like such a pressure cooker for a lot of people that it sounds great to be able to take those pauses and those minutes and try to, but they’re also not giving themselves permission either self or the organization culture is not giving them enough permission to be able to even navigate this in an organic. Healthy
Janna Koretz: I think there are some cases that’s true. And one example that comes to mind, I have a friend who works in a hedge fund on a trading floor, right? So if you don’t make a good choice, somebody loses like a billion dollars. And that’s true, right? And so that is a situation in which you don’t have the time to be like, well, like someone’s on the phone, they wanna trade the stock, it is what it is. I think, again, to make the point, urgent versus important, I think that those situations are not actually that common. And so again, it depends where you are in the org chart, right? But like I think if you just start doing things differently and it is working, no one’s gonna say anything to you about it.
If you have people who seem, who are showing up to work more or seem to be more efficient or more willing to do things for you, go extra the extra mile, or like you’re making more money, your company seems to like you landed the client, whatever it is. I mean, in the end, like the upper echelon of leadership, they don’t care how you get there.
They want it done. And so it’s a tricky way to, so to your point, yes, that’s true, and I think a lot of times there’s more wiggle room than you think because of the reasons that I just stated.
Russel Lolacher: Do you communicate your journey to executive, to colleagues that you’re going through this going, I know where we work, and you know what, I’ve got a different way of looking at things. I don’t know how well that would be received depending on the culture you work in or the executive you have.
Janna Koretz: Yes. And I think then you have to and, right? And so all of this is also in the context of if you wanna keep your job, you also have to play the game. So we talk a lot about how do you implement these things within the context of the culture that you work, because that is, you have to do that. So what I’m saying, all sounds nice and good.
Is it a hundred percent applicable all the time? No. Is it a hundred percent applicable to every work situation? Situation? No. But most of the time you can do some of it and it’s helpful. And so that’s all we’re trying to do. And in terms of sharing, I mean, it’s interesting you say that because I was just working on an article, someone about co-founder therapy or we do a lot of like executive, worker couples therapy basically is what it is because it’s the same thing. You’re in like an intimate relationship with somebody. And like when you do that, do you go back to your organization and tell people you’re doing that and show them and tell them what you’ve been learning? And again, I think that really depends on the culture.
I think there have been times when that’s excellent and there are times where no, you shouldn’t do that. You should just do what you’ve learned together and do that and not really share about it. So it just depends on what’s allowed. I think it also depends on part of the culture, right? Is how, well, I guess this is just part of the culture in general, but what is the economic state of your business at this time also matters a lot. So.
Russel Lolacher: Yeah it feels like there’s a piece of this where this is how it should be and could be. If you’re a sinking ship, you kind of gotta forget yourself. You kind of gotta forget your needs and jump on the sinking ship ’cause that, or help your financial situation. I just it’s hard to be about self, but also trying to be about supporting the organization when it needs what it needs to operate. And I feel that might be a really hard friction for some people.
Janna Koretz: But I don’t think they operate in silos. I think that they are very connected and I think the way in which you connect them depends on where you work and what’s happening to, to the organization or you at the time. But I don’t think it’s like I can either work on myself or get on board with what’s happening at work. I think it can be both. And I think oftentimes what’s happening at work needs you to be different. And so most of the time, I wouldn’t say, I wouldn’t say all the time, definitely not all the time, but most of the time, the work that people do in our office, like we don’t hear a lot of well, I did this and it was a disaster.
We don’t hear a lot of that. I think people need to be judicious in how they apply all of it, right? But I don’t think, they’re definitely not, in my opinion they’re so interconnected. And you just have to figure out how to apply what you’re doing for yourself in a way that functions at work.
And very rarely are they separate.
Russel Lolacher: I am a huge proponent of self-leadership, which I’m hearing all this work that we need to do to sort of define our boundaries, to manage ourselves, to show up for our teams. Does organizations have any responsibility here at all? HR perhaps, or executive? I saw you smirk when I said HR.
Janna Koretz: I laughed a little. Yes. I think that’s a really big ask though, because there are so many people involved. Like for example, my husband has worked in big tech his whole life. Well, not his whole life, his most recent life. And like moving, like getting a new trash can in the office is like impossible, right?
It’s just there’s too many cooks, there’s too many things. There’s and he once showed me what had to happen for someone, for them to hire a contract worker. And it was like this 15 step process. There were like eight people involved. And that’s just so inefficient, right? And so would it be helpful if organizations and or leadership, could promote a culture that was authentic and helpful, even if it’s very specific to who they are, right? Because then people know what they’re signing up for. This is a place where no one cares about your mental health, so work here or don’t like, fine, whatever. Like you made that choice. But everyone sort of has these platitudes about culture or it’s not very well thought out, or it’s not very well implemented because there’s too many people and it isn’t a priority.
And so cultural shifts at work are really hard to make. I think they’re really important. I think relying on a big organization to do that is mostly unrealistic, but if you work in a smaller place, then there can be room for conversations about that, especially if the cult current culture is like getting in the way somehow.
So I think it is a responsibility of those people, but I don’t think that in actuality we can rely on them to do, fulfill that responsibility.
Russel Lolacher: And there’s a lot of organizations where, and especially the larger ones where it’s not one culture, it is 7,000 subcultures.
Janna Koretz: Right.
Russel Lolacher: And there could be three business areas where people’s hair are getting pulled out because of the high pressure, and they’re sitting right beside the another department that’s like I. Yeah, I’m good. I’m chill. Like what? There was a problem today? I didn’t even know.
That must be difficult for a lot of people seeing that even in their face in the what’s being allowed and what’s not being allowed based on, the pressure that people are under. Like why do you care about their mental health and not my mental health?
Even though the jobs are completely different, it doesn’t matter sometimes ’cause they’re still seeing other people’s quality of life seems to be a hell of a lot better than ours.
Janna Koretz: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I have no answer to that except for yes, and I see that play out all the time. But then that just comes back to, what’s important to you? What are you gonna, what do you have control over? How are you gonna make changes for yourself? How are you gonna gain insight so that if you wanna make external changes, you can you can only control what you can control.
Russel Lolacher: So Janna, to wrap up the conversation. If anybody’s listening to this, who’s pulling out their hair and basically going, I just, tomorrow, I just wanna do one thing that will get me at least understanding how I can handle high pressure better for myself, my family, my coworkers. What would be that first little toe dip in the water?
Janna Koretz: I think I always tell people like a good place to start, even just or, so a different way to think about things is you find yourself having a reaction to something. Think about why that could be and think about three other ways that could be different. So for example, like I’m very frustrated, I can’t get my job done because this idiot is in my life or whatever, and he’s being really difficult and he doesn’t see the purpose of this project and blah, blah, blah.
Okay? So that is why. Why is that frustrating to me? Okay. Because now only can I not complete my job, but actually achievement’s really important to me. Why is it important to me? Family origins and all these things? There are a lot of reasons why that could be true. So this guy’s being difficult. Let me think about a couple other ways in which things could be different. The scenario could be different. Maybe his boss told him no, so now he’s stuck there, right? Maybe he doesn’t have the budget. Maybe he, I didn’t communicate effectively to this person that, how important this is for my team. There’s a lot of ways why that person made that choice or information they’re lacking that made them make that choice. And so if you just start to think about things that way, it helps people think a little more flexibly. It helps you kind of think more of theory of mind, helps you understand yourself a little bit better, and then you’re not as entrenched anyway, even if the outcome is not any different.
Now you’re training your brain to think differently. And that’s sort of the point of all of this in general.
Russel Lolacher: Thank you so much, Janna. That’s Janna Koretz. She’s a founder and licensed psychologist. As She has written tons of articles for how Harvard Business Review, Wall Street Journal, tons of publications, find her online. And that book, that children’s book on anxiety might be something you wanna pick up as well.
Janna Koretz: It’s on Amazon. I made that, God, that was like 15 years ago. I could tell you how that happened. We had this, someone left, we used to see way back when we started, we had a woman who worked for us who also saw children. She had a ton of toys in her office and she had this hippo unicorn, whatever, rainbow unicorn named Henrietta.
So Henrietta just ended up being like some, you’d come in the office, she’d be like making coffee in the morning. Someone had put her in like making coffee or whatever, just like around the office and I don’t know, one day I was just, I literally was in the shower and the whole book came to me.
And so I got out, wrote it all down. I was on my way to a dinner party and a friend of mine actually is an illustrator, like in her spare time, and I told her about it. She was like, I’m gonna draw this person. I was, okay. And so we made the book. It was just really fun. But that was sort of, it was sort of siloed into like its own little special.
There’s no other story about it. It just, it got made and then we moved on.
Russel Lolacher: That’s awesome.
Janna Koretz: So, yeah.
Russel Lolacher: Spark of creativity and wanting to put it out into the world is never a bad thing. That’s kind of cool.
Janna Koretz: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it’s about anxiety. Everybody has anxiety, right? So it could be helpful.
Russel Lolacher: That’s what I’m like, people listen to this. I’m like, I don’t care if you’re an adult. You may need a children’s book about anxiety. It gets foundational.
Janna Koretz: Yeah, it is foundational. It really applies to everybody. Just says it in a way that children can hear. So.
Russel Lolacher: Thank you so much for being here, Dr. Janna Koretz. I really appreciate your time.
Janna Koretz: Yeah. Thanks for having me. This was fun.