When Leaders Mean Well — and Still Get It Wrong
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“An organization that’s culturally humble is always evaluating itself to get better, particularly when it comes to its workforce.” – Dr. Joel Perez
In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel chats with award-winning author and executive coach Dr. Joel Perez on developing cultural humility to improve our leadership.
A few reasons why he is awesome — he is an executive and leadership coach, speaker, and consultant. He is owner of A-poyo Coaching and Consulting, LLC, and a Professional Certified Coach with the International Coach Federation (ICF), as well as a few other coach certifications with the Academy of Creative Coaching and in Gallups Strengths. His book, Dear White Leader: How to Achieve Organizational Excellence through Cultural Humility, helps leaders develop their cultural humility for individual, organizational, and community change.
Connect with Joel and learn more about his work…
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Russel Lolacher: On the show today, we have Dr. Joel Perez and here is why he is awesome. He’s an executive and leadership coach, speaker and consultant. He is owner of Apoyo Coaching and Consulting LLC, and a professional certified coach with the International Coach Federation, ICF, for those like their acronyms. He’s as well as other coach certifications with the Academy of Creative Coaching and in Gallup strengths.
His book’s, dear White Leader, how to Achieve Organizational Excellence through Cultural Humility. Humility. Yeah, I’m working on the words, helps leaders develop their cultural humility for individual organizational and community change. I have a feeling that’s gonna be a big part of our topic today and he is here.
Hello doctor.
Dr. Joel Perez: Hey, and thank you for having me, Russell. It is so good to be here. And just to clarify, as we were talking about earlier, Ayo means support for in Spanish, and so I’m here to support people, and I do that by listening and providing clarity and providing support that a lot of our leaders or leaders need in the work that they do.
Russel Lolacher: I, and I appreciate the clarity. As we also mentioned, as a Canadian, there’s not as much of a Spanish, uh, push for us to understand Spanish as much as other, uh, nationalities and, uh, backgrounds. So appreciate the clarity. So tha even though most of my listeners are American to be blunt, uh, so appreciate that immensely.
Um, but before we get anywhere, sir,
we have a question I have to ask all my guests, which is, what is your best or worst employee experience?
Dr. Joel Perez: Oh yeah, I did, I’ve done some reflection on this ’cause I have a bit of both. Right. And so, um, for me, I would say, and I, and I talk about this when I do workshops and present, uh, with different organizations, is, um, ’cause one of the things I talk about is, um, letting go of our assumptions, biases and certainty in doing this work of developing cultural humility.
And one of the certainty pieces that I had was I would never lose my job. Uh, in any of the work that I did, I just was certain that I was always gonna be employed. While lo and behold, my first job outta graduate school, um, I made a mistake that I own, but the, it’s the organization decided to let me go.
Uh, and it was a. I think they could have handled it better, um, in the way it was communicated and it was a live-in position. So my wife and I were living in our residence and we had to vacate our residence and move in with some friends who took us in. But that was the worst for me experience, but also taught me a lot.
And, uh, really learned early on about, uh, integrating a growth mindset even when we make mistakes. Uh, and so that, that’s my worst experience was losing my job. Um, my first job outta graduate school.
Russel Lolacher: And you’ve said to make mistakes, but it sounds like something that just happened. To happen. So it’s, it’s not so much a mistake as circumstances. If I’m, again,
Dr. Joel Perez: Yes. No, the, yeah. Mm-hmm.
Russel Lolacher: So what did you take with you? Was it a matter of resilience to the next place?
Is it a matter of trust within the organization that they have your best interest? Like what was it that you took with you?
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah, well, one, I realized that I’m replaceable, uh, that no matter how much I love an organization, how much I’m loyal to an organization, the organization doesn’t owe me anything. Uh, even though I would like to think that they do, and it was early in my career, so I thought I was invincible, right? Like, how can you replace me?
Like I do this awesome work? While the reality is no, I’m replaceable. And that was a life lesson for me in that I realized that I needed to have what you said, resilience. I chose to be resilient. It also created space for reflection. And one career-wise, was this the right vocation for me? Uh, given what had happened.
Uh, or did I want to continue on this path of being in organizations like this one and where I’m serving students and keys in? Um, I was working at a college and university at the time and wanted to mirror. Uh, particularly for those students who shared, uh, whose, whose identities I shared, right? I identify as Mexican American, Chicano. Latino. Spanish was my first language. At that time. There weren’t a lot of us in the academy. Uh, and I chose this vocation because I wanted a mirror for students who looked like me and, and had very similar experiences so they can see themselves being successful. But that particular moment I started questioning, is this the right,
Is this right for me? Uh, and so resilience, reflection, discernment, also a lot of good mentoring that I sought out. But I was really, uh, wanting to, I took the time to explore what was next for me and be really intentional about what I needed in the next role.
Russel Lolacher: I know we’re gonna talk about identity a bit in this conversation, but, and it has come up a bit on the show, is that we tie ourselves so much to the work as part of our So it’s interesting that this did happen to you, but so early on, it actually almost is better that it happened then rather than 20, 30 years later where it’s.
Not so much as the resilience of I’ll never get fired, but it is the, but this is who I am. Who am I if I’m not this?
Dr. Joel Perez: Yes.
Russel Lolacher: for you to have that sort of reflection at such a young age to better prepare yourself for later on, amazing. But a lot of us don’t get that opportunity or at least look at it that way so readily.
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah. Yeah. And, and yes, that, that’s true. Now, fast forward, 25, 30 years later, I got a new leader, a new e executive that I reported to, and it was clear that they and I were not on the same page. So I chose to exit. Um, and also went through a bit of a, uh, transformation again. But I took that opportunity reflecting on that first experience, and how do I use this as a, as as a mentor, said to me, use it as a sabbatical, as a time for reflection about who am I?
And like you have, you have talked about, yes, my identity was starting to get wrapped up again in the work that I did. And that also created an opportunity for like, no, that’s not, yes, it’s important to me this work. But it is not who I am. Uh, I am Joel Betis. I am a faith man of faith, a man who loves his work and wants to contribute to the world, to better society.
Um, and that’s what I leaned into during that second time, uh, which was much later in my career.
Russel Lolacher: I want to get into conversations around identity I think that’s kind of what we’re dipping
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah. Right. Mm-hmm.
Russel Lolacher: But before we get further, we have to sort of set the table as to what we’re even talking about. Joel. Now I know the word humility, I know the word cultural, but you are talking about a thing called cultural humility, and I’m kind of curious as to how you define that, especially when it comes to leadership in
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah. So culture humility is this posture that allows leaders to navigate the complexity. That comes with creating a sense of belonging in their organizations and the psychological safety, meaning that this, this, um, complexity or actually I’m working on another book, uh, re uh, talking about the instability that exists in the world and that’s just the new normal.
I think we’re just gonna continue to be experience instability, but it’s being able to develop the ability to navigate that complexity and cultural humility allows you to do that. Because there’s three characteristics that contribute or or make up cultural humility. The first is self-awareness and self-critique, which I know you’ve had guests on your show talking about the importance of self-awareness, which I believe is foundational in anything that we do as a leader.
Second is.
Um, redressing the power imbalances or addressing the power imbalances that exist in your organizations, because as you share more about yourself, as you get to know your people, you’re gonna see there’s some things that need to be fixed because certain groups experience your organization different than other groups.
And so you want to redress or address those power imbalance. And ultimately that leads to organizational and systemic change. But it’s circular. It’s not linear, but it always starts with self-awareness and self-critique. Culture, humility is a posture, so I always describe it as being, having open arms because you’re going to need to learn how to navigate that complexity, be comfortable with ambiguity, and realize that society will continue to change and demographics have changed and they will continue to change.
And so what worked 15, 20 years ago? It doesn’t work anymore. Why? Because society has changed. Our employees have changed. We got a new generation of employees coming into the organization. Our families are changing. The things we talk about are changing. And so this posture really bleeds into every part of our life, uh, not just our work
Russel Lolacher: So in, in doing research for this conversation, cultural competence came up a lot as well. Are they the same thing? Is there some difference that should be noted between the two?
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah, so I, I talk about in my book, uh, cultural competency is the foundation. It is where you start. But as when I do these talks and I have conversations with leaders, cultural competency, for me early on, I always felt like, I always felt like there should be more because it felt like cultural competency was a box to check an IDA dot or a t to cross.
And the reality is things shift and morph, uh, and culture. Humility is that posture that it allows you to, uh, I guess, um, navigate or surf those waves that are gonna continue to come at you. Whereas competency always felt like me is, felt like to me, is as a, as an end point. And this work does not end. So cultural humility, cultural competency is the foundation and you need to keep developing those aspects of cultural competency and cultural humility because things will continue to evolve and it’s not a destination.
Uh, and, and I know that frustrates some leaders because people want just tell me what to do so I can fix it. Well, the reality is that
The world is such that it, you just can’t flip a switch or turn it off. It’s always gonna be shifting and, and, and, and morphing. And there’s gonna be challenges that come along the way.
And it’s about developing this posture to navigate when those challenges occur, to navigate them well so that you’re, one, supporting yourself, but then also supporting the leaders around you and your families and your organizations.
Russel Lolacher: I think, and, and I love the way you’re talking about it. I think it also is a differentiation between leadership and because you are talking about what leaders should do, but what gets in the way is what managers Yes. So leaders are about transformation. Managers are about checklists,
Dr. Joel Perez: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Russel Lolacher: have to deliver a thing. Here’s the five steps I have to do to do the thing. That’s not the human, that’s not leadership. So. I, I, I, I totally on board. The problem is, is that we’ll say leaders are doing this. I’m like, we’re not doing this.
I’m like, but they’re not leaders. We’re defining, we’re defining them wrong. So what helps a lot for a lot of people to understand certain concepts, I think, is to sort of go, what, what does that look like and what does that not look like in the workplace? So if an organization is. Culturally humble. Is that is, can you say that?
Sure. Culturally humble or not culturally humble. What does that tangibly look like every day in an
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah. An organization that’s culturally humble is always evaluating itself to get better, particularly when it comes to its workforce. Uh, and what I mean by that is I’m a big data person, and so how do we collect data in a way that really, um, highlights the stories of the, of, of the people that work for us so that we better understand them?
Um, and that’s the difference in, in organizations that just are more management focused, where you’re just sort of hurting, hurting people and creating widgets. Which is, you know, important, right? I mean, you gotta, you gotta keep, you gotta stay in business, you gotta, you gotta make products, you gotta deliver goods.
But what gets in the way is when you do it that way, is people who have identities that come to work, who are bringing things from outside of work into work. Managers aren’t always, um, uh, aren’t always developed in a way to really understand how do you, na, how do you navigate? When someone brings what’s happening outside in the political environment, in their families, in their communities, into work, and that’s happening whether we like it or not, a manager will like, well just gimme a checklist, right?
So I can like make sure they’re doing this, this, this, and that. And if they’re not doing that, that’s a problem and they need to go. Leadership is like, let me sit with Russell and really help so I can understand what’s happening. And then I can create some space for them to be reflective and what it is that they need that I can support them with, so they can continue to do their work at a high capacity.
And that is, I believe, the difference between an organization that’s culturally humble and one that is not, or more focused on the, just getting the widgets out the door. Uh, and I would say the organizations that do the, who practice cultural humility or are working towards that,
Um, are the ones that are gonna end up in the end being much more successful and be more profitable.
Russel Lolacher: We’ve jumped around a bit about the identity and you’ve. I love that you sort of tapped into sort of the DNA of this show, which I, I believe every, if you’re a good leader, you have three things, self-awareness, situational awareness, You are not a leader if you cannot lean into any of those.
So you’re kind of talking about the first two
Dr. Joel Perez: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Russel Lolacher: but I wanna start again with that self-awareness piece, which you talk about specifically in your coaching, which is called Identity conscious leadership. What is that? Is it just, is it a self. Uh, awareness exercise. Who am I? How do I show up? What are my triggers?
And then I just, the reason I ask this is ’cause I wanna make it more of a link to cultural humility just sort that
Dr. Joel Perez: yeah. So, so where, where identity is really important, uh, and I, I call it a superpower. Is, um, so for me, I said earlier when I introduced I’m Mexican American, uh, Chicano, Spanish is my first language. That’s a part of my identity, right? My culture is a part of my identity. And early on in my career, I was conditioned to sort of hide it because I wanted to go along to get along, right?
I wanted, like, I didn’t wanna be the angry brown guy, right? Um, and so when I, what, when, when I was, uh. When I was able to really fully lean into it, then that’s when I really started to flourish. Um, and seeing my identity as a source of strength, my cultural identity. I’m also identify as a cisgender man, right?
It, it is who I am. I also am a man of faith. Faith is a huge component in my life. Uh, I bring, uh, it’s, it’s, it’s really for me to lean into those things and see them as sources of strength. Right. So even if you’re a white, white dude, there is source, there is a source of strength to that, and for you not to be afraid of that.
But you gotta be comfortable with it. And that’s where the getting comfortable with your identity is really important. So when I work with clients, um, particularly clients who identify as white male is I talk about, so how do you show up at work? How, you know, how is this, how is your identity playing out?
And that’s where the self-awareness piece comes in because, um, a client of mine, his, we’ll just call him Tim, Tim, identifies as white male. Uh. Uh, also L-G-B-T-Q, right? That’s part of his identity. But we were talking about how his whiteness shows up at work, and I said, okay. So, uh, he was coming, he came to me and said, Hey, Joel, I have this employee.
He identifies as black, who’s really unhappy and he’s unhappy with the way that the, the way our organization is a addressing issues. It was ran up very far after the murder of George Floyd. And I said, okay, so how are you showing up in that space? And he said, well, I acknowledge that I’m a white, white guy and I have some things to learn.
I said, that’s good. How are you engaging in the conversation so you can help this employee so you can understand what this employee is experiencing? Right? Even though you may have a hard time identifying with what they’re experiencing. So we coach, and ultimately where we landed was that Tim would ask this, um, we’ll call him, we’ll call him Brian.
He would ask Brian. So tell me more about how you’re feeling. And so Brian, which you, Brian shared, he’s like, okay, what change, what does change look like for you in order for you to feel like the organization is doing what you feel like it should do? And Brian shared. And then Tim ultimately, like Tim came back to me, I said, how was that?
He’s like, it was really good. I learned a lot. Um, and now what I’ve learned is I realize that I have some things that I need to address as the leader. Right. That’s gonna lead to organizational change. So Team Tim leaned into his whiteness, I wanna call it that, acknowledging that he had this ability to engage in conversations because he has, um, unearned privilege, um, that he brings into the workplace.
So. When I say identity is your superpower, am I just talking about, uh, identity for, for, you know, cultural identity or gender identity or sexual identity? I’m talking about all your identities and learning how to see them as sources of strength instead of sources that are getting in the way of you being successful.
And so in this next book, I’m, I’m, I’m writing, I’m talking about self-awareness, and the key aspect of that is using your identity as a superpower.
Russel Lolacher: Is it always a superpower though? Because I mean, not everything is binary here, ones and zeros. So as much as I understand that your identity’s a superpower, but you also need to be back humble about it.
You need to be, have some humility about it. So I can white cis, know, male. There’s a lot in those three things that are, you know, very combative or very contrary to progressiveness, to transformation. So as, so it just sounds weird for me to go, well, I need to lean into the power of my
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah. Yeah,
Russel Lolacher: rough.
Um,
Dr. Joel Perez: That’s fair.
Russel Lolacher: trying to understand how do you reconcile that?
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah. Well, one, it’s acknowledging right, that if we’re gonna continue to continue with the example of someone who identifies as white cisgender is recognizing what may get in the way because of your identity, right? That may be impeding you from understanding others’ experiences, right.
I, yes, I identify as cisgender male. I know that as a man I have some unearned privileges that I need to acknowledge, but there’s also some things that I can bring in that are sources of strength. So it’s learning how to balance, when to recognize what are the strengths and what are the growth areas for me that are continue to, that are gonna continue to be growth areas, right?
And so that’s where I think it’s important for leaders to get clear about who they are
And no, I mean, if, if I, you early when you introduced me, you said, I a Gallup strength certified coach. Right? So I know strengths are really important, but strengths can get in the way, right? If we push them to an extreme.
Um, so I’m not saying you don’t acknowledge the things that may be impeding you because of your identities. I think that’s part of the self-awareness piece. But where it’s really important that a lot of leaders don’t get is. What do you do when those, um, when those, when those blind spots show up, right?
How do I recognize that blind spots are showing up so that I can adjust and be better and not let them get in the way of my, you know, of, of, of me being successful? And that’s where the self-awareness piece is really important. So your identity could eventually become challenging for you or get in the way.
But if you’re good about knowing who you are, you will, you will know when that stuff starts showing up, and then pivot or acknowledge it and realize that, no, I, I can do something different here. But it takes one, knowing who you are and then how it can get in the way of you being the leader that you, I call it exceptional leadership.
Russel Lolacher: We don’t get super aware overnight though. I
Dr. Joel Perez: No, no.
Russel Lolacher: is not something many people have leaders or otherwise. So what kind of internal work would you recommend for people to sort of lean into so they’re even able to embrace cultural
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah, so one of the instruments that I like to use is the Intercultural Development inventory. Um, it’s called the IDI for short. Uh, one, it’s about, it measures how you bridge across cultural differences. Um, and so that’s an awareness tool so that you can begin to recognize where you’re at on this intercultural development continuum and then determine, okay, I want to.
Move along the continuum towards a particular aspect of the continuum. And that’s the first self-awareness piece. I also talk about getting, getting really clear or understanding where your biases are or what your biases are, right? ’cause we all have bias. Our brain, we’re, we’re trained to have bias. Um, and that’s kind of going with Malcolm Gladwell’s work, um, around, we are just, we create shortcuts, which then ends up getting in the way or, um, um.
C you know, um, bi, you know, biases start showing up. So getting clear on your bias. So I call, I talk about getting clear about your biases, developing cultural self-awareness, and then other awareness, meaning getting to know the people around you so you can hear their stories and share your story. But the self-awareness piece is a heavy lift.
Um, and so what I, in addition to instruments, it’s about, okay, one of the things I, I work with clients on is. And I do this as a coach now is when I’m going into a coaching session is I ask myself, what bias do I need to check, right? Um, and asking yourself as a leader, what biases do I need to check as I walk into this meeting?
Right? But it’s getting, first, it’s getting clear what biases you may have and how do they show up. Um, so it’s a lot of, could be assessments, could be self-reflection, but also could be asking people in your life who you trust. To say, Hey, I’ve been told this in the past, that I show up this way. Is that true?
Am am I? Am I getting good feedback? But it requires you to be, have some level of comfort of being vulnerable. And that is hard. And I’m not saying that’s an easy thing, but if we’re going to move towards being exceptional leaders, we need to start that process. But you’re right, it’s not overnight. It takes time.
Um, and vulnerability. And, and that could be, you know, a span of three months, six months, nine months, a year. And it’s always happening, right? Because when we get performance evaluations, that could be a self-awareness piece, right? We’ve just been made aware of something, right? And so one of the things I talk about, three aspects of developing a posture of cultural humility are growth mindset, deep curiosity, and deep listening.
Right. And so if you have a growth mindset, you’re going, if you develop a growth mindset, you’re gonna be able to see, see when you get constructive feedback as, uh, an opportunity to grow and use it that way, instead of like, Nope, I’m not changing, not just, you know, Russell’s gotta deal with it, right? Uh, which sometimes some leaders do, right?
Like, I, no, I don’t wanna change. This is who I am. You just gotta learn how to manage up. Well, I mean, yes, you can do it that way and you may have some success, but ultimately people are gonna feel burnt out and they’re not gonna wanna work for you.
Russel Lolacher: How do you know you’re getting it right? Because we go back to that whole manager versus leader thing where it’s, is it performative?
Or performance. So how, how do we know we are not check boxing and we’re actually making a difference either for ourselves
Dr. Joel Perez: Uh, I, I would say it all comes back to asking people for feedback, right? Um, which again, is not easy. That’s why, you know, I, I dev, I did a, a self-awareness course on LinkedIn learning, and I talk about ask identifying people around you who can give you honest feedback that you trust so you can check yourself, kinda like what I talked about earlier, but it’s asking for feedback.
Creating the feedback loops that you’re going to need in order to confirm. And maybe you need, you need a mentor in your life who’s just gonna kick your ass every so often to say no, you’re not being honest with yourself. Right. Um, and so that is, that is important as well. So developing pe, identifying people around you who can give you that feedback and then taking that feedback go.
Okay. I, I can, I can. I, I, I hear that and here’s how I’m gonna adjust. Uh, and then let’s see how it goes, right? Um, leadership is a work in progress. It’s not like you become a great leader overnight, right? It, it takes time. Um, but you gotta be willing to put the work into it.
Russel Lolacher: We’ve mentioned diversity and we’ve mentioned generations, and that’s sort of where I’m kind of curious about. We have a lot of generations, mine included, uh, gen Xers, who are rewarded by having power, are rewarded by checking boxes, not leading.
But actually, you know, putting out fires and moving up. So you talk about in your research and your book about giving up power to share power with but there’s a lot of people that do not want to do that because they’ve been in command and control their whole hierarchical career. What is a light switch?
What is something based on your coaching background, is there something that’s sort of like. Moves the needle with that sort of, sort of thinking that I, I mean, you talk about curiosity a bit, but even that seems to be hard to crack that nut
Dr. Joel Perez: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I guess it’s a good question. I would say, um, as, as I think about it, reflect on the people I’ve worked with, I think power. Yes, power is, we are rewarded for working with power, for demonstrating power. ’cause we feel like it, it gets things done right. Um. I would say what, what has transpired for me in my own life is seeing what’s happening in the world around me and realize that even though I think I have power, I really don’t.
I mean, um, and, and to me that’s a humbling experience, right? Uh, letting go of those certainties, right? As I’ve moved up the corporate ladder. Um, and so generally what I have found is its experiences or someone just. Says, Joel, you got it wrong. Like you messed up and something’s gotta, something’s gotta change, right?
That watershed moment. Now, not everyone may say, I don’t have, I, no one’s giving me that feedback. Um, right. And so I think just, just sitting back and creating space for reflection is going to open up the doors for you to see things that you may not be seeing. Yeah, but generally it’s something that happens in the workplace, outside the workplace, in your family that makes you realize like, crap, I think I have power, but I really don’t have power and I have things I need to work on.
Right. And and that’s where the personal comes into the workplace, right? Because we see things that are happening in the world that we cannot control. We also may experience something in, in our families. Um, you know, I, I have a, a, a 19-year-old who struggles with depression, right? I, he was not safe for a while.
That was humbling because I thought I was raising a good, strong person, right? And that wasn’t happening. And so it shed some light on me on how I was showing up as a father. And it made some things click for me of like the importance of mental health. And how we take care of ourselves and talk about ourselves.
And so all that to say Ru um, Russell is to, to I, when those moments happen. Creating space for reflection and then asking ourselves, being curious, why am I feeling this way? What’s happening? What does it say about me as a leader? And how do I integrate what I’m learning into how I lead?
Russel Lolacher: and don’t treat it like it’s a workshop, like because for the way you’re talking, I’m like, okay, but how do we get consistent?
But that’s where I’m guessing we operationalize this from a feedback loop going, okay, when’s the last time I checked in? I need to do it every three months. I need to do it every week. Depending on where I am with my own awareness and where I need to
Dr. Joel Perez: Mm-hmm.
Russel Lolacher: professionally or personally. There needs to be that.
Milestones. I guess we get back to, we get back to being a little checklisty here, but I think that’s where it helps with the consistency to allow us to do these
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah. And then being flexible and knowing that. What work, what’s working now for me may not work 10 years from now. Right? Because things have changed. Um, I’ve changed. Um, and being okay with that ambiguity, which isn’t always an easy thing either.
Russel Lolacher: no, because again, we’re back to identity going, but this is who I am. But you’re not that person anymore. You don’t do that work anymore. You don’t lead that way anymore. Um, so yeah, it’s, it’s, I can totally see this as more of a journey than just, uh, unfortunately we’re like, we only have the budget to do this once, sorry, we’re gonna have to see again in two years when we have next fiscal conversation.
I’m like, oh, then you’re not doing the work.
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah. Yeah. Well it’s, it’s giving people the, building their capacity to build space into and giving them the ability to build that space into their work. Right? Uh, and some companies want to do that and others don’t, right? They’re like, well, that just cost too much money. Or It’s not meeting, it doesn’t help us meet our economic, our.
Financial goals? Well, I think if you’re, if you’re successful at it, my guess is you may see the return on investment, not immediately, but three to five years down the road when your, when your team feels like, oh, I really love working here because I feel valued, I feel accepted, and I’m given, I’m, I’m given the ability to be, be the, to be the best that I can be and be and develop myself as a leader that this organization wants me to be.
Russel Lolacher: So let’s expand it beyond the leader. ’cause you can’t be much of a leader if you’re not leading other people. So that’s the, it’s, it’s, you can’t lead in a silo.
So introducing cultural humility to a team. Regardless of size that you’re responsible for, how do you introduce this in? You’ve done the reflection, you’ve done the work, you’ve gotten really curious, but you don’t, you then have to go to work or you then have to interact with others who may not see it the same way you do or have not done the work, but you still have to interact on a daily basis ’cause you are responsible for those people.
How do you, how do you do that when people have such different lived experiences?
Dr. Joel Perez: Well one is, um. Modeling it for people, right? To, to share more about myself, uh, share more about my experiences so that the people that work for you can feel comfortable sharing more about themselves. ’cause if their leaders model it, they’re going to be more, um, it’s gonna, they’re gonna be, they’re gonna feel freer to do that themselves.
Um, and I’m not saying cultural humility doesn’t mean there’s no accountability. Right. I, I think that’s important to recognize too. It doesn’t mean like everything is, uh, touchy feely is great and important, but it doesn’t mean that there ha there can’t, there shouldn’t be accountability, right? That’s where you, you lean into, you know, your principles, your values, um, the organization’s values, and you’re gonna create space for reflection.
But you still gotta get the work done, right? But I think for me, what I have found of value to me is when people want to get to know who I am, what makes me tick, um, and then think about, okay, how do we leverage Joel’s strengths in order to meet our organizational goals or our department’s goals, or our team, our team goals, and having a conversation of what that looks like.
But that means me, the leader, sitting down with the people that I lead to really get to know them and create space for them to share more about themselves. Uh, that’s gonna be key. Um, and then say, okay, we’ve agreed. We, you and I Russell have agreed that we’re gonna work towards this. That is the agreement.
And then if the agreement is broken, then there needs to be a conversation like, well, we agreed to this, remember Russell, we agreed that this would happen. It didn’t happen. There needs to be some consequences. Right? And so then you talk about how you do that. Um, and that’s important. Um. And I, I say this in the book, it doesn’t mean there isn’t accountability.
I mean, when people really mess up right? Things, people need to be held accountable. Um, but if you’re creating, if you’re creating a culture where people don’t feel like they can mess up or make mistakes, um, that’s gonna create, um, it’s gonna create some, some friction. And people don’t feel like, well, if I can’t, if, if, if I can’t, if I’m punished for making a mistake, I’m not gonna take risks.
And, and then the organization’s gonna ultimately suffer or the team’s gonna suffer. The department’s gonna suffer because we said we want creativity, right? But that means creating space for creativity to happen. Um, and so, I dunno if I got to your question, but, but I think that’s how I would, that’s my initial response is modeling it,
creating space to listen to people and to recognize that not everyone’s gonna feel comfortable sharing about themselves.
And that’s okay. But you’ve created the space for them to do it if they choose to. Um, and you have to be vulnerable. Vulnerability is important, but you have to be, you have to have purpose with your vulnerability. It’s not just about you sharing all your dark secrets. Um, ’cause that’s not appropriate, right.
Um, so I, I, when I work with leaders, I talk about, okay, if you’re gonna be vulnerable, you have to let people know why you’re being vulnerable. Like, what is it you want them to take, take away from your vulnerability, um, and. Vulnerability is important, but it has to have a purpose. Uh, it can’t just be vulnerable for the sake of being vulnerable, uh, because that’s gonna make people like, well, why is Joel crying right now?
Like, I don’t understand. Um, and so anyway,
Russel Lolacher: let, let me give you an example.
I kind wanna dig into a little bit. So. This all sounds great. Unfortunately, nothing is that Uh, we’ve kinda mentioned this, right? So as leaders, we mess up all the time, but if we’re introducing this into a team, we’re talking from, basically what I’m hearing is empowerment. I’m hearing inclusion, I’m hearing belonging if we do it right, but we as leaders, we mess up and if we’re empowering our teams to call out What if we are the ones that did it because we are the we, we do this, we stumble. We have our own biases that that tend to come up. So in that situation, we’ve created a safe space, but then suddenly we’re the quote unquote target of that, um, vitriol or frustration, or how do we handle that? Because I mean, that can be very hard.
’cause as an identity based person, you’re like, but I’m a good leader. Look, I’m trying real hard and yet I might be a part of the problem. Or at least in this scenario, how do you handle that?
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah. So, uh, in the book I talk about, uh.
How to recover from, uh, well, when I do these trainings about, particularly when we commit a microaggression,
and I, even as a man of color, I make mistakes, uh, and I need to own those mistakes, right? I still stick my foot in my mouth, right? Or I still may treat someone differently and not realize what I’m doing when it, when I’m called out for it.
What I advise organiza or leaders to do is apologize, right? I am sorry that happened, but not expect a response. Right? Or not ask the person, help me get better. Well, that person may not want to help you get better. Um, but apologizing, owning it
and, and, and really and recognizing that you can, that you probably may need to walk away for a while and say, Hey, Russell, I know that I offended you.
I’m really sorry. You don’t need to respond. I may come back to you in a couple weeks and ask for some feedback, which again, you have the ability to say no, to. just walk away. So an example I’ll share is I was doing a keynote for an organization on culture humility. I, I use an example that just didn’t land well with a particular person in the audience.
They sent me an email where they gave me some feedback and. And it was really like, I can’t believe you did that. I’m, you know, that was, that I felt really, you know, I, I felt like you, you know, weren’t practicing what you’re preaching. Um, and I said, okay. So I, I, I read the feedback. I sent an email. I said, first of all, I just want, I said, I, I am so sorry you felt that way.
I would be happy to have a conversation with you so that I can fully understand, but you don’t need to respond this to this email if you don’t want to. They never responded. Right? Um, I think sometimes we, because the danger, uh, there’s a book, uh, that I think Wadsworth is one of the authors. It’s called, did that just Happen?
Um, they talk about how to, how organizations should we, they give, uh, a, a blueprint for organizations and people to use when they make mistakes. Like this is, a lot of times we try to, we get defensive and we make ’em more about me than about the other person. And I think getting comfortable with, at times you may say things, you may do things, the organization may do things, and the first thing should be to apologize and not expect a response, or demand a response instead of what sometimes happens.
Oh, Russell, I’m, I’m so sorry. That’s not what I meant. I, I, and you know that that’s not how I wanted to come across. And then it becomes more about me and how I feel. Right. Intent versus impact. Yeah. Your intent, you had good intentions, but the impact didn’t go very well. So not recognizing that even though your intention was good, the impact was X, and recognizing that and apologizing and not expecting a response unless that person wants to give you a response and giving them permission to say no or to like, yeah, let’s have lunch.
Let’s talk about And back to your point, Russell, is you have to lay that out ahead of time of how you’re gonna cr you know, if this happens, here’s how I’m gonna respond and here’s how you have, I’m giving you not permission, but I’m giving you, you have the ability to say no to me.
So everyone knows what, what the what, what the rules of engagement are, right?
Creating the common language. And that’s what a lot of organizations don’t do, whether it’s conflict or confrontation or microaggressions or whatever, is they don’t do a good job of creating the common language for the organization of how they’re going to interact when things, when mistakes are made, or when conflict or confrontation occurs.
Russel Lolacher: What are we risking by avoiding Because there, I mean, you, we’ve talked about how we, what we can do, but we don’t, we haven’t mentioned really well, what if we don’t? What if we go, well, you know what? I’m sorry you didn’t like my presentation.
That’s a you problem, not a me problem. Ooh. Not as someone who’s done some divisive speaking, uh, in my own way. People loved it. And there were some people that were certainly triggered by it. Fair. Maybe I’m doing a good job that way, but I could have avoided, you know, or you could have avoided in that situation and just said, you know, that’s a, that’s on you.
What are we doing? How are we hurting our teams or the organization? By avoiding that,
Dr. Joel Perez: Well one, it’s, it’s not taking the opportunity to figure out how, having that growth mindset, what can I learn from this, right? How, how’s it gonna help me be a better leader? Um, how is it gonna help me understand that other person better? Right. I think we miss the opportunity for growth if we just choose to ignore it or, or sweep it under the rug.
And that, that’s you. It’s not me too bad for you. There might be some truth. I mean, I’m not saying that everyone’s, um, interpretation of what I said or what I did is always correct. Um, but it it, but taking that moment to not just brush it under the rug. ’cause that’s the danger, right? We like, oh, too bad for them.
Right? But what if we said, oh, okay, that’s interesting.
So when, when, when I am working with a client of, uh, someone who ident from a, from an underestimated group or underrepresented group, when they come to me and say, Hey, Joel, this happened at work. I said, oh, okay. Um, how are you feeling? I’m really sorry that happened to you.
Do you, did you talk to anyone who was also in the room just to get confirmation that what you heard is what you heard. Right. Are there people that you can go to, as Russell said this, or Joel said this. Did I hear that right? And it could be that, you know, Leon thinks, oh yeah, they definitely met, that’s what they said.
And then the question for someone who’s maybe not in a position of power is, do you feel like you have the ability to confront Russell or confront Joel about what just
Russel Lolacher: just happened.
Dr. Joel Perez: And if it’s no, then I never advise clients, Hey, if you’re not feeling like you have the ability to. To bring something up to, to your boss because there’s a fear of losing your job or, or retaliation, then don’t do it.
Right. But to back to your que, back to your original question is you have to create that space for reflection. Even when you get feedback that may just go like, yeah, that’s not that, that’s not what I intended, or, or that’s on them. It’s not on me to just say, Hey, is there an opportunity for me to learn something about myself here?
Requires discipline, requires practice. ’cause a lot of times we’re just conditioned, like, especially as leaders as we move up, is we’re like, wow, this, you know, I’m, I’ve been told to just develop thick skin, so too bad for you that you felt that way. Right? Uh, and then we may be missing some really good feedback that we need to hear.
Um, and so building in a reflection of when you receive that feedback to say, okay, what is it that I heard here? And how, how can I learn from it? Or are there things that I can.
learn from
Russel Lolacher: Yeah. I think that’s where we can confuse resilience a little bit with that thick well, look, I can handle these difficult No, you’re avoiding them.
Your, your thick centeredness is not connection. It is one off, it’s off one offness, or, or pushback
Dr. Joel Perez: exactly.
Russel Lolacher: In a larger organization, there’s this reoccurring elephant in the room where we talk about DEI Um, especially side of things these
days.
Dr. Joel Perez: uh.
Russel Lolacher: So I was trying to, trying to think of systems and policies that kind of get in the way of cultural humility.
And this is one that keeps coming up is these programs that are others or that’s somebody else’s responsibility. So what are some things that are getting in the way of us being able to do the work You’re talking about from an organizational
Dr. Joel Perez: Well, I think, uh, I mean I guess in its simplest form is not
Understanding the people that are in our organization. Right. Not creating space for them. So if you do an employee engagement survey, right, which a lot of large organizations do, whether it’s the Gallup survey or some other one, how are you analyzing the data?
Right. Are you, I have anec, you know, have an have an academic training, right? I have a doctorate. I did research. We were trained. Or I’m trained to disaggregate the data. That’s a fancy word for saying, let’s break up the data, right? So let’s look at how each of the groups experience our organization, and if there are gaps, we probably need to figure out how do we address those gaps to, to minimize the gaps.
So if f, if why, if women are leaving at a higher rate than men, why is that? You know, is there some narrative that’s happening? So what gets in the way is we don’t look at data. Data’s really important, particularly if you want to like make sure that we’re meeting our organizational goals. When it comes to our employees, it goes back to that
A Harvard Business Review article around belonging. That was, I think it was 2016 or 2019, where they clearly demonstrate when people don’t feel like they belong, they are more apt to leave, which then costs the company much more money than if they just would spend time developing that sense of belonging in their organizations.
’cause, ’cause we know research shows that it’s cheaper to, it’s cheaper to keep people than to hire new people at all levels. So I think the mistake that organizations make is they want to treat everyone the same. The reality is not everyone’s experiencing the organization the same. And um, I mean, that’s your goal that everyone is doing really well regardless of demographic group.
But the reality is, especially if you’ve never done a baseline or get a baseline, you don’t know what you don’t know, and ultimately it’s gonna hurt your Um, and that’s where the listening to people’s stories, that other awareness that gets into the dressing, the power imbalances that may exist, but if you don’t know they exist and you can’t address them or redress them, um, and you can’t ignore the things, uh, it’s gonna, you know, it’s gonna be like the frog in the boiling water, right?
At some point the frog dies. Um, and you’ve, because you’ve never addressed the underlying issue, ’cause you’ve never gotten the information in order to do that.
Russel Lolacher: So what does that look like in these touchstones that every organization. Leans into and cookie cutters like crazy. Onboarding, leadership training, performance reviews.
How can we bake it? Cultural humility. Can we bake it into these things? Did it become, well, we don’t wanna do more work. We’ve got our onboarding system already in place, Joel, why would we, where would we even be able to fit that in?
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah. Well, I mean, I think it, it takes the organization to recognize that we have work to do, right? And I talk about onboarding is so important, um, because if you want people to know what the, um, what the, um, what the mode of operation’s gonna be, you have to train people as they come in. So if you value certain things, you start at the beginning.
And that you, if you want to create the, a culture of belonging, you have to start with the onboarding. And I think that yes, there’s some heavy lifting. I mean, I’m, I, I, I, I will acknowledge that it makes it, it takes an investment, but what’s, what’s the cost? While the, the cost if you don’t is X. Right? We know that people ultimately will leave the organization if they don’t feel like they belong or feel like they are valued.
Right. Um. And so looking for, for taking a systemic approach, right? So in the book I talk about, I, I present a particular framework, um, around these dimensions of, you know, vitality and viability. So what are you doing to instill this work in the organization for the long term? Because you can’t hire, you can’t just hire a person or create a program to solve your problem.
So what kind of investment are you making to sustain your initiatives over time? What are you doing in training and development? What are you doing to, um, to identify where there might be some, um, conflict, the, you know, conflict that exists between groups or, or recognizing the data about like, okay, how are each of these groups experiencing the organization?
And then where are you identifying talent and like, where are you hiring people from and who are you hiring? Those are four aspects that an organization really needs to dig into. Identify metrics because it’s not just about doing a program, having Joel show up and do a workshop, and that’s gonna solve your problems.
Um, it’s about, okay, where do we instill these things along the way so that it begins to embed it or becomes part of the DNA of the culture? And that takes time, but it starts with having a framework to use as opposed to just taking a piecemeal approach or throwing spaghetti up the wall and, and see what sticks.
Russel Lolacher: I can see communication being a big piece of this. I’m gonna go back to my three pillars of great leadership, is how do we need to change how we communicate, especially from an executive level as an or from an organizational level. I, I mean I, I know some organizations will be like, but look, we have a cultural month.
We’re mentioning a few things that are special in that month. You know, black history month, that sort of thing. But again, we go back to that. It feels performative. It feels like, well, you’re just saying that because you are. HR department told you you should, um, as opposed to it being back to saying baked in.
So how would you like organizations, a culturally humble organization, what do they need to be paying attention to, to communicate? Because that’s what people connect
Dr. Joel Perez: Yeah, that’s, that’s a good, uh, that’s a good question. And the way I talk with organizations when I work with organizations is you have to communicate the progress you’re making and the progress you’re not making. Right. Like being transparent, like, Hey, our goal was X, right? Or, we wanted our student Enga, our, our, our, our employee engagement survey to do this.
But what we found was this, right? There’s work that we have to do. We’re gonna set some metrics and goals based on that. And then every, every year, every two years, we’re gonna report back to you so you can see what’s happening. The problem with organ or the challenge that organizations had when they, you know, after the murder of George Floyd is they made all these statements, right?
Uh, a lot of organizations did, but the organizations that were successful are the ones that said, okay, we’re gonna make this statement and that’s important, but we’re also gonna look at ourselves deeply. To see where is it that, the, where does the work need to happen? And then we gotta do the work, but we have to let people know that we’re doing the work.
So that way it moves from performative to, um, to su to sustaining those efforts over time. It’s not just about saying, we’re gonna invest $30 million in this. Okay, in a year, let’s report out how was the $30 million used? What changes are we actually seeing Data and creating data is very important to this work.
Becoming a culturally humble organization, you have to look at the data, but you have to report the data out to your employees, to your stakeholders. That’s where organizations get themselves into trouble when they don’t report out, even if it’s not going well. Um, because then people don’t feel like there’s any accountability.
You just made a statement, awesome, but what’s it doing? What are you doing in a year from now? And organizations weren’t willing to report that out. Um, and because they were afraid right? Of the negative backlash, but that communicated something to people like you just made, you were just being performative.
Russel Lolacher: I, I think a big piece of this is that organizations need to be less reactive and because, to your point, George Floyd, oh yeah, tons. Uh, they went, the pendulum went really far one way, and then the political world change and the pendulum s swang way too far the other way.
So there almost feels like there’s this, I’m not, I’m not saying this in a political way, a middle ground. I avoided the word central, uh, a middle ground where it’s. Operational where it’s just part of what you do based on the data that it is providing. Yeah. And the communication attached to it. And yet organizations want to be reactive because that’s how they’re, that’s that’s because it’s pressure as opposed to change.
Dr. Joel Perez: Yep. Oh, I, I would agree with you. I think it, it requires leadership at the top who’s willing to say, yes, we have to make a statement. We have to apologize and then we have to back that up with action. And those are the organizations that are gonna demonstrate progress and attract people to wanna work for that organization, invest in that organization.
And because they’re willing to recognize, hey, we have work to do, whether it’s around ethnicity, culture, gender, um, sexual identity, um, people are gonna wanna work for organizations like that and ultimately lead to their success. The organizations that don’t do that well are gonna, are just, are, are going to, maybe they may still be profitable, but not to the fullest capacity.
Right. And not retaining their talent. Um, and, and that’s gonna cost an organization money.
Russel Lolacher: to wrap up our chat. Uh, last question I kind of like to, to leave it on is just maybe a, something that we can do. So there’s anybody listening that’s like, I wanna be culturally humble. I want to sort of move the needle on that.
Humbleness. I keep dancing around humble and try to using it in a different way.
Dr. Joel Perez: Uh,
Russel Lolacher: what can we do, say tomorrow to just Edge, be more informed? Your action? What would you recommend is that first little step in the right
Dr. Joel Perez: yeah, that’s a good question. I, I would say that if you want this, the, the first step is to ask yourself, what am I not listening to in myself around this particular topic? Or what am I afraid to talk? What am I afraid to acknowledge in myself around this topic? And write it down and reflect, right? Be curious about what you just wrote, and that’s gonna start the process.
And then the follow-up is, who do I need to bring into this conversation to help me get better at the things that I know I need
Russel Lolacher: That is Dr. Joel Perez. He is an executive and leadership coach, speaker and consultant, and he’s written a book you should check out, called Dear White Leader, how to Achieve Organizational Excellence Through Cultural Humility. And amazingly, I didn’t ask anything about the title.
Dr. Joel Perez: That…
Russel Lolacher: not once and I’m like, I’m like, I’m not gonna ask him. I’m sure he gets asked that all the time.
Dr. Joel Perez: I do, uh, yeah, and you can, if you go to the website, the Dear White Leader.com website, there’s some podcasts that I did about the title, and so you could, you could find out more about the title.
Russel Lolacher: Sure. Plug another podcast on my podcast.
Dr. Joel Perez: I…
Russel Lolacher: thanks Dr. Joel. Totally. Thank you so much for being here, Joel. I really appreciate it.