Overcoming the Struggle with Workplace Relationship Building
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“A relation is something where people know you have their back. Can people trust you? Do they have like a partnership feeling with you, not an employee feeling or a colleague feeling?” – Payal Nanjiani
In this episode of Relationships at Work, Russel chats with executive coach and leadership expert Payal Nanjiani on overcoming the struggles of workplace relationship building.
A few reasons why she is awesome — she is a sought-after executive coach and leadership expert who coaches and advises senior executives, Fortune 500 CEOs, and government officials—guiding them not just to greater success, but to more meaningful, purpose-driven leadership. Author of the Success Within – The 21 Ways for Achieving Results, Prosperity, and Fulfillment by Changing Your Leadership. Featured in Times of India, Silicon India, SheSight Magazine, and on America’s Fox 50.
Connect with Payal and learn more about her work…
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Russel Lolacher: And on the show today we have Payal Nanjiani, and here’s why she is awesome. She is a sought-after executive coach and leadership expert who coaches and advises senior executives, Fortune 500 CEOs, and government officials, and she’s guiding them not just to greater success, but to more meaningful, purpose-driven leadership.
She’s got a book you certainly should be checking out called “The Success Within: The 21 Ways for Achieving Results, Prosperity, and Fulfillment by Changing Your Leadership.” Oh, I’ve got questions. She’s also been featured in Times of India, Silicon India, SheSight Magazine, and on America’s Fox 50.
Payal Nanjiani: Hello, Russel. Thank you so much for the honor of having me on your podcast. Really feel blessed and honored.
Russel Lolacher: Oh, thrilled to have you here. Even though we’re dealing with some serious different time changes, this’ll be great.
Payal Nanjiani: Yeah, I’m sure. We both are in different time zones
Russel Lolacher: I love that. Um, before we get into it, uh, I have to ask you the question I ask all of my guests, and I love our topic today because the struggles of relationship building, it’s, it’s real for a lot of people because the name of the show is relationships, but there’s a really hard– It’s really hard for a lot of people to even take those steps. So I’m, I’m getting ahead of myself.
Payal Nanjiani: Absolutely.
Russel Lolacher: The question I need to start with, of course, is what is your best or worst employee experience?
Payal Nanjiani: Okay. On top of my mind, it comes one of the worst because that was the worst that actually led me to leave corporate America and start what I am doing. So I remember I had completed my post-graduation in, uh, human resources and I had joined one of these mid-size companies in the US and everything was going great.
I was very happy with my work. I was very happy with the team, learning the entire work culture and everything, and the only problem I had was with my boss. Uh, and not that she wasn’t good at her work. When it came to delivering results to the clients, she was fabulous at it. But somehow when it came to managing people, oh my goodness, she was one boss you just did not want around you.
So every single day there was a lot of tug of war, I would say, of what I want or what she wants, and we were never on the same platform, never on the same page. And always there was an environment that was getting more and more toxic because there was a lot of frustration. I never felt like giving ideas.
I wanted to… You know, it came to a point when I just wanted to run away, like literally resign and even if there’s nothing else in my hand. So I think for me, that first job experience with a boss was very difficult to understand how do you play the dynamics, and that’s where actually relationships also come into being.
But that was my, I think, very worst experience. And if I have to think of a very positive and a, and, and, and a great experience I’ve had up till now, I think it has been where I got to learn from a lot of CEOs eventually in my work that led me to do what I am doing
Russel Lolacher: Fair enough. Fair enough. Um, ob- obviously negative ones tend to jump out first for everybody because they’re just so visceral, they’re so emotion-based, to be completely honest. So you got out of corporate America, but I’m super… Or corporate everything, corporate global, to be honest. So what did you bring with you, knowing that relationships are so important, seeing that you just couldn’t connect?
So what have you been doing in your own work to sort of make sure that doesn’t happen with those that report to you or those
Payal Nanjiani: Yeah, absolutely. I think that taught me a huge lesson because, um, as I was planning to resign, I remember the CEO of the company, he said, you know, he just met with me. He’s– and he spoke with me and helped me understand that it is, you know, I can leave the job and I can go and join another job, in fact, but it’s not gonna take me anywhere.
And that’s how when I learned that it’s not about leaving one boss and going to another, because I might have a worse boss in the next place. Now what? Do I again leave? Do I again find another job? Then my whole career life will go in that. So rather than that, it is very important, at least I learned that, that wherever you are, you have to learn how to grow where you are planted in the environment around you.
So if anyone who is hearing this is having tough times with their bosses, you need to understand that it is important for your growth to deal with people of different calibers, learn how to build great relationships rather than running away from it. That was a huge lesson I took, and that’s what I also did with my teams as I moved to another company before stepping out to do what I’m doing.
I worked with other companies too, and that’s what I learned, that, you know, my team members will come in all shapes and sizes, not just physically, but mentally. And I have to know how to adapt to those mental shapes and sizes, and that’s what a great leader is all about.
Russel Lolacher: Couldn’t agree more. I also think it can go too long too, ’cause I remember talking to a gentleman who was so frustrated with their boss and had been trying over and over again to be heard, to be listened to, to engage, to feel like valued. And I’m hearing all this and I’m listening to all this. I’m like, “How long have you been trying to connect with them?”
And they’re like, “Two years.” I’m like, “You need to quit.” ‘Cause something’s… I, I completely hear what you’re saying, but there’s a point where it’s just never gonna work. So you can adapt all you like, but if the other person’s not willing to meet you halfway or even a little bit, then you need to change your environment.
I completely hear that. Like, so the relationship was there, it just wasn’t… You couldn’t grow ’cause nobody was giving you, I guess, fertilizer was probably the b- the worst
Payal Nanjiani: have to define what, like you said, you have to define what your fertilizers mean in a relationship in, within a company. You have to decide what you’re actually looking for. Just because you’re frustrated with the current environment or a boss doesn’t mean that there’s going to be a much better environment out there somewhere else.
That might be worse or times might change. So you have to know, apart from just adapting, what are some of the changes you have to bring in yourself, and it’s not about staying quiet, that just because I have a boss like this, I have to adapt and I have to stay quiet. Not at all. You have to learn skills of how do you voice it out, how do you actually speak to people?
How do you, you know, uh, have those tough conversations? Most of us, we shy away from the tough conversations. So adapting means developing and learning new skills that can better you as a person and build better relations. It’s not about staying quiet
Russel Lolacher: Agreed. I, I wanna take a step back for just a moment ’cause I usually like starting our conversations, any conversation I have, with defining things. So when you’re talking about relationships in the workplace, what do you mean, Payal, when you’re talking about to define what is it to have a relationship in the workplace?
Payal Nanjiani: I mean more than just a hello, hi. I mean more than just going on LinkedIn and connecting with people and saying, “Oh, I have great networks and great relations.” No, that’s not relations. A relation is something where people know you have their back. Can people trust you? Do they have like a partnership feeling with you, not an employee feeling or a colleague feeling?
Can they talk to you their heart out? Can you be vulnerable in front of them? Can you share, um, you know, topics of, uh, business, of leadership, of work? So all of that, you know, can you meet outside of office and discuss things which are important and not just in the closed office environment? You don’t have to keep in touch with the person every time, but even if the person is not in your office, they are in the industry somewhere, how well connected are with you with them?
So are you the person who will just pick up the phone one day and say, “Hey, Happy Christmas or Happy Thanksgiving,” and then that’s it? Or when you need them, you would say, “Hey, you know what? I’m looking out for a job.” That’s not a relationship. A relationship is built day in and day out continuously by watering it.
Always water your relationships. That’s what it means to me.
Russel Lolacher: Can it go too far? And I’m not talking romantic relationships, but I mean there’s the line into too personal. Because there’s– I, I’ve engaged with people where they’re like, “Well, I’m happy to have this relationship, but I don’t wanna be friends on Facebook. I don’t wanna connect on LinkedIn.” Like, that is a bridge too far for them.
How do you define that when you’re trying to define your
Payal Nanjiani: Yeah, like you said, your relationships have to have a boundary. Like I said, it is very professional. It’s more about knowing who has my back, who is able to stand with me, who am I like a partner with rather than just an employee. All of that you have to have it within your boundaries. Now, you might not want to connect with people personally on your Instagram or Facebook.
That is completely fine because that’s your personal life. But professionally, how are you maintaining relationships where people feel, “Hey, you know what? I know this person. I want this person for me in my, in my company.” Where people understand you, where you understand them. So I think that is the depth of, uh, of it more than being connected online, which is a very personal portal for people.
Like, I’m not on Facebook. Like, personally, people cannot connect with me in my personal life anywhere except my official, uh, handles
Russel Lolacher: And that’s a boundary you’ve set up that you’re like, “No, I don’t need– I don’t want to know you in that way. This is, this is where I’m– This is the environment I prefer to
Payal Nanjiani: So I think that, that is the boundary we all have to define for ourselves
Russel Lolacher: So why is this hard for people? Because we’re, we’re dealing with, uh, uh, I don’t know if I wanna go totally down the loneliness epidemic because I know that’s a big thing globally where a lot of people generationally especially are having a problem with this. But they are having a stumbling block when it comes to building relationships other than go in, go to work, or stay at home with all the remote side of things.
So why is this, why is this so hard for so many people?
Payal Nanjiani: See, Russel, if you look into the Gen Z or the new generation of workforce, which is already in, if you look at them, they have come from a completely social media generation. They are consistently on any app that you can find them on, on the cellphone. So for them, relationships… In fact, I, I know so many who would tell me that, “Oh, no, Payal, I just prefer to text my boss.
I’m not, I’m not the person who can call.” They are unable to pick up the call and have the conversation, so building a relationship is far-fetched for them. In fact, we have to help them that how do you actually talk with people, build that great relationship. Don’t shy away from conversations. They are a generation who are used to ghosting.
I don’t like something, I just ghost you. I don’t like something, I’ll put it on text and that’s it. So they are more comfortable that way. That is their voicing out. They voice out through WhatsApp, they voice out through, uh, you know, uh, Vibers and all those things. That’s their comfort zone. And then there’s a, you know, generation like us who is more onto vocal.
We, we prefer to talk things out, we prefer to say it out, we prefer to show it on our face through our moods and temperaments. So I think we are dealing with two complete different generations, uh, of, uh, in the workforce, and that is one of the biggest barriers right now to building the relationship.
That’s number one. And number two, even if you are a vocal person, and we are the types who can talk it out, the reason we shy out is because we have not been taught early on in our life to be vocal and talk about the emotions we feel. Relationships are all based on the emotions you feel. That’s how they are made or broken
Russel Lolacher: Could it also be, and I hear you from the generational standpoint because w- we put ourselves in different situations what we’re comfortable with. How many people in younger generations are like, “Please don’t call me, just text.” Like, “I do not want to hear your voice. I want to…” But that is a barrier for, for engagement and relationship building. Could it also be our definition of what a relationship is? And, and so bear with me here. Some people might think a relationship is somebody that will help me in my career, or I’m looking for a colleague that’s like a work wife or a work husband, or is it just an acquaintance? Like when we talk relationship, I’m wondering if some people are thinking it’s binary, like it’s either I have a relationship or I don’t, or there might be a spectrum of types of relationships.
Like with a CEO, you might want a, a relationship, but it might look very different than you do with, say,
Payal Nanjiani: Yeah. No, you’re absolutely correct. Uh, and there is a reason that we all have a different r- uh, definition of relationship. One of the biggest is we get into building a network or building a relationship at work with various people at various points and different types of designations and positions. We think about what is in it for me, what, what do I want from this networking?
What do I want when I’m building this relationship with a CEO or someone? And the moment you do that, you’re diluting the entire, the entire essence of building a relationship. So it is not about what you want or, you know, what, what you want to get out of it. It is more of how you can be valuable. Why do you want to build…
You know, people have this habit of sending LinkedIn connections everywhere, and, uh, there is no reason, like, why would you want to connect with someone if, if, if it’s only for you? So you have to have a boundary where I would say a definition of relationship should be what can I offer? What can I give?
How can I be useful to the other person? And I think we have long forgotten that, and we only get into things of for what we need, and that’s not a very good sign of leadership in companies.
Russel Lolacher: So what would you suggest to somebody when they’re trying to build relationships, like around intention? Because I hear you from the LinkedIn thing, it seems like you’re collecting cards. Like you’re just collecting people. You’re not actually engaging, you’re not building relationships, you’re not… It’s funny, when people actually reach out to me and go, “Can I connect?”
My first quest- I actually question every single one of them and go, “Why,” just out of curiosity, “Why did you think it would be important for us to connect?” And m- most of them have answers. A lot of them don’t, where it’s they’re immediately, “Well, I need to sell something,” or like it’s all about them. And I’m like, “You know what?
I’m good. I’m good. You don’t, you see me as a, as a number. You don’t see me as a person.” So when it comes to intention, how do we ch- how do we need to change our mindset when it
Payal Nanjiani: what you said, Russel. It’s, it’s sad that you’re seeing someone as a, as a number. You are seeing someone as someone who can help you and get work done for you. You’re not seeing them as an individual. What got you to connect with the person? What was the commonality? What were the synergies? What is it that you would like to help the person with?
What did you read about that person, you know? So I feel connections are built step by step, not in a hurry. And I will repeat this thing, every time that you build a connection or a relationship thinking, “What’s in it for me?” It’s a disaster. It’s not going to go much ahead because people do realize the energy that you bring.
So every relationship has an energy level, and if you are operating at a very low level, at a, you know, low level of frequency and energy, and the other person is a little higher up there, they see the difference. They– You know, people can feel your energy long and way before you’ve actually even connected with them and spoken with them.
And that energy tells them, “Hey, looks like this person is just here for some reason.” And that’s, that’s important to see what type of energy you are putting into this connections and into the relationships
Russel Lolacher: Is it different for those that are just starting out in their careers versus those who are mid-career or later in their career when it comes to relationship building? Because it, it might be very hard for a frontline staff who just started the organization to go, “Hey, I wanna talk to X executive. I wanna build a relationship.”
And some organizations would completely frown on that because of hierarchy and because of thou shalts and so forth. So I’m curious as to what would you recommend to those based on where you are in your career and your
Payal Nanjiani: Absolutely. Because if you are working, say for example, if you have just started off as a trainee and you want to connect with the executive, number one, what’s your reason to connect with the executive? So for example, I remember one of the CEOs with whom I was coaching, uh, you know, she gave me a very great, uh, example from her own life where she said that, you know, when she joined in as a trainee, she was not being utilized completely, her potential was being wasted, and she felt she can do much more than what she’s currently doing.
And, uh, she said, “I was getting very frustrated, and I decided to write to the CEO of the company that, ‘Hey, look, you know what? I’m working in your company, but my potential is not used completely. I can do much more, and, uh, you know, you could hire somebody else at a lesser pay and get the work done rather than someone like me.'”
Now, that’s value addition. You’re thinking of, “I’m gonna add more value. Nobody’s listening to me here, so let me just write to the CEO and see what happens.” The CEO called her in, spoke with her, and then gave her some high visibility project in the same role of a management trainee, and since then they’ve always been in touch.
Now, that’s what I call, you know, as a trainee, you can connect with the CEO. But if I’m the person who’s like, “Oh, you know what? I just wanna connect to the CEO because I want visibility. I want them to know I’m working in this company,” why would they connect? Their energy level is way up there and your energy level is here.
Look at the gap. So in those times when you have nothing to offer, you have to build connections step by step at the level at which you are, and maybe one level higher or senior based on what you’re able to offer. So that’s where I would take it from
Russel Lolacher: With your coaching clients and those you’ve worked with over the years, what do you see as some of the bigger barriers? What are the struggles for a lot of people? ‘Cause I mean, the top of my head I’m thinking self-awareness. I’m thinking maybe even… ‘Cause there’s a lot of people that don’t think, “Why would they wanna talk to me?
I have nothing.” Like, but it’s a self-esteem thing. It’s not an actual value thing. So I’m kinda curious as to your own experience where you’ve seen going, “You know what? These are some common threads I’m
Payal Nanjiani: Two, I would say two that comes to my top of my mind with coaching, uh, senior leaders and mid managers. One is complete lack of self-confidence. They believe they don’t have that knowledge, they don’t have the caliber, they don’t have it in them to connect upward. And number two is lack of self-awareness.
They, they are not even aware that they are not connecting. There are so many people during the coaching sessions, you will be amazed, and I’m sure you’ve also, uh, seen that. You know, during the coaching session when I’m asking them, “Okay, so how are you networking? How are you building connections?” “No, I don’t have…
I, I don’t network right now. I’m, I’m, I’m in my job.” So they don’t even think about going out there. Second, when I ask them, “Who are the key players? What is your relationship with them?” “No, I have never built any key player relationships.” So they are not even self-aware that this is one of the most imperative steps to success and growth.
And when I say imperative s- uh, step to success, not because, oh, you know, I should make the relation because I want. Important because it creates your visibility, that’s one, and number two, it helps them understand who you are in their organization, which they completely miss out on
Russel Lolacher: What’s a step that somebody that’s lack of self-awareness, ’cause self-awareness comes up a lot on my show, and I find it to be a complete… Self-awareness and situational awareness I feel to be the bedrock of any good leader, and if you don’t have that, I don’t think you’ll ever be a great leader. H- so with those that have a self-awareness issue, what are you telling them to do?
Like, what are the first steps? Is it just, like, make a list of all the people you know now? Like, I’m just kind of curious as to that self-assessment you
Payal Nanjiani: Yeah, it is, it is like a self-assessment. You first have to understand, first have to be aware that I am not doing it. I’m not building relationships, I’m not connecting with anyone. So that’s that self-awareness starts with first understanding and accepting that you’re not doing it at all. And, uh, after that, once you are aware, you have to make it a daily practice.
It’s not like once in a month I’ll connect with someone on LinkedIn all of a sudden, or I’ll meet somebody at, at an event, and then we’ll see. You have to put in the efforts every day. Who are the people who you want to build connections with? Are you reading about them on LinkedIn or in the newspaper?
Have you read something about them? Have you met them somewhere? Now, it is ridiculous to just go ahead and tell someone, “Hey, I read your article, I liked it, and then, uh, let– you know, I would love to connect with you.” Great. That person might take the first step and initiate it and connect it. Then what?
Most people lose out at this phase. They build all the connections around, and then when you ask them, they are like, “Oh yeah, I remember someone someday.” But then that’s too long lost, and then you’re consistently only building and building and building, and you’re not leveraging anything. You’re not, you know, uh, active.
You’re a passive relationship builder and connection. So you have to be very active and not just focus on your work. That, okay, you know what? It’s my work. I have my to-do list. I’m delivering on time. Everything is perfect. You have to consciously take out the time, and I would say one word. For this, you have to be a people leader.
Without that, it’s impossible to bring– build those strong relationships
Russel Lolacher: Not to get too granular here, but you keep mentioning it’s a daily practice. It’s a daily practice. What is it– Like, what are we actually doing day to day? Is it, “I, I saw your post on LinkedIn, I’m just sending you a quick email to know I really liked it”? Is it just sort of, is it little things like that? Is it…
I, I don’t know. I’m just trying to figure out what a strategy might be. Is it, like, writing down, “This week I’m– here’s the three people I need to talk to more”? I’m just trying to understand what you would recommend.
Payal Nanjiani: definitely there are various ways, Russel, that you can do this. It’s not like one strategy that you have to follow every time. Like you said, sometimes you might just come across an article in the Forbes magazine or somewhere, and you wanna send it to somebody who you remember had spoken about it. Now, if you take that link and you send it to everybody, it doesn’t make sense.
But if you remember that, “Hey, you know what? Sometime back, Payal and I had this conversation about AI, and this is the exact article. It’s so good, I’ll send it to her.” Now, that’s the connection. He’s not– He or she is not sending it to everybody. For example, you might have heard in your– with your employee or with your boss, somebody might have said to, said to you that, “I’m having a very tough time, uh, you know, with my son, and he’s going through this lung issues and everything, so that’s where my time is going.”
And you know that person is worried. You might just look up an article and say, “I came across this. I thought this might be useful to you.” You have to feel it from your heart and your soul, not just from your mind. Relationships at work which are very strong are not built through the mind. That is expectations when we have it in our mind.
They are built through your heart and your soul, where you’re focused on that person’s needs. You know, you know their interests, their concerns, you know their challenges, their hopes, their expectations, and you’re sensitive to it. And you have to connect with the people’s pain points. That is where real connection gets built
Russel Lolacher: But Pyle, I’m so busy. You want me to do this on top of my normal job? I’ve already worked 9:00 to 5:00. When am I supposed to etch out this? I barely get 15 minutes for lunch, and now you want me to take 15 minutes a day to do this? It’s such an excuse, but I’m sure it’s something that you
Payal Nanjiani: Absolutely. You said it in the exact words I heard it. So yeah, I mean, people feel that… You know, I have seen in these 21 years of coaching, uh, I have noticed most people feel that doing their basic job and doing a little more than their basic job will really help them in their career and get them there.
So it’s definitely going to take you to the mid-manager level, but after the mid-manager level, the game changes completely. Nothing is, uh… Now, when I say about game changes completely, I’m not saying that, hey, you know what? I have to build these relationships again for my work purposes so that I can get a job because I know the CEO.
Never get to that point because that’s not why they are connecting with you, and you will never get a job just because you’ve connected with somebody for that. Connect because you can make industry friends. Connect because you’re not going to be lonely, otherwise it’s lonely all the way to the top.
Connect because you can have some good talks, you can improve your learning, you will know what they are doing, how you are contributing. Connect for various reasons because growth and success in the corporate world is more than your nine-to-five job. That’s a given. It requires much more. You might be doing nine to three, but if you spend two hours with people, you will do much better than a person who’s doing nine to eight
Russel Lolacher: How does culture influence all of this? Because as, as someone who’s trying to build relationships in an organization, as I mentioned before, hierarchy can get in the way of how dare you even talk to that person that’s three levels above you. I- I’m just sort of curious how you’ve seen culture get in the way or support maybe even a positive…
Payal Nanjiani: is definitely a cultural difference I’ve seen. So when I’m working with the Asian continent, uh, people from the Asian continent, I see there is a number… Two things. I see there is a complete lack of awareness that this thing needs to be done. And second, people in the Asian continent, again, they shy away thinking that, hey, you know what?
He or she is up there. I don’t think this is– I cannot connect with them. And even if they do, that connection is a lot of hesitation. It’s not bold. It’s not something that you would do it happily and with the confidence. So that I have seen in the Asian continent, be it whether I’ve been, you know, coaching Philippines, Japan, India, any of these places.
Come to the Western world, uh, especially in the United States, I have seen there is more acceptance. The hierarchy is there, but at the same time, even though I’m sitting at the top and you have something to speak with me, you have something of value, it is considered, you know, it, it is considered as an open thing to do that.
So there is no he- That hesitation can be removed as compared to what I see in the Asian continent. So yeah, cultural differences are there, and those cultural differences are because of the way people are born and brought up in that particular culture. Hmm. Yeah
Russel Lolacher: a culture at the beginning relationship, uh, sorry, the beginning of an organization, middle and top are very different culturally as well. We’re talking about this very much from a middle management junior person. What’s the executive’s role? Aren’t they supposed to be making this net- Like, I’d hate to think that you get to a certain level in an organization, you’re like, “I don’t need to make relationships anymore.
You’re beneath me. I do not need to talk to people that are lesser than,” ’cause then again, that’s horrible leadership. What are you recommending to those at that level who may be thinking, “I don’t need to, I’m already successful”?
Payal Nanjiani: think, uh, without people you can never get there. So there is one, uh, conclusion chapter I wrote in my fourth book, “Make It to the Top,” where I said that it’s not lonely at the top, it’s lonely all the way to the top. So if you start, you know, uh, reducing people and you’re not gonna be connecting with them just because you feel that, hey, you know what?
This person is right now just under me or working under me, or is three levels under me, I don’t need… I think that’s where we lose out. Influencers in the companies are not people in positions or titles. They are the person who is sitting quietly in the, uh, office corner, but you don’t know about them, but everybody listens to them.
Everybody wants their thoughts. That’s where your influencers are sitting. So you have to build relationships with everybody. I always believe, you know, my dad always taught me that you never know when times change, and a person who is a receptionist might become a CEO tomorrow. So never take anyone, uh, you know, for granted.
Don’t feel that just because the person’s position today is X, the person is not going to be any valuable to me. I have to build relationships always at the top. Relationships at work should be built right from bottom to the top. That janitor who is in your office, do you know him? Does he know you? Do you talk with him?
Do you, you know, at times just get a chocolate for him? That’s relationship at a pure level. So across the company at all levels, your relationships should be strong
Russel Lolacher: I remember when I was going through my broadcasting portion of my career, one of the first things they taught us when we were training is, “Look at everybody in this room.” There’s about 45 of us. “Make friends with everybody because you do not know where– They’re gonna be your boss one day, uh, and it could be next week, it, with, with your job.”
Just based on how the industry worked, people could move up very quickly or laterally across the country. You have no concept. So it was really, really important, and that really hammered home to me is like… And, and I didn’t like everybody. I didn’t like everybody. There was no– Like, it’s hard to like 45 people.
Like, it is… I didn’t, but I knew that I didn’t want it
Payal Nanjiani: Yeah. No, no, you’re, you’re right. Uh, it just clicked my mind something that when you say, you know, it’s not that I like everybody or everybody has to like me, it’s that, that equation itself we don’t want to get into. But at the same time, you know, I always say people label people, “Oh my God, this is such a difficult person,” which I’m sure you’ve heard too.
“Oh my goodness, Mayur, this is such a difficult boss or such a difficult person to handle.” We need to remember that the person who is difficult for us is actually easygoing for someone else, and that person doesn’t find that other person difficult. So that means people should never be labeled as difficult or tough.
People are people, human beings made up of the same five elements anywhere in the world that you are. And if they are made up of the same five elements, then basically you just have to know how to deal with that particular personality, with that particular person who has a different personality than you or somebody whom you like.
But I think we should come up… We should just do away with this concept of labeling people as difficult or tough, and that, that could help us build better relations actually.
Russel Lolacher: Completely agree. And I think, and, and to your point, it’s not about making friends here. I mean, and it c- that can happen. That can absolutely be a byproduct of, you know, you could end up having them at your house. I mean, we could get to that level, but relationships doesn’t mean friend, friends, but it could be friendly.
Like there… It’s a matter of that respect level. It’s a matter of that colleague level. It doesn’t need to get that far. And I think, and, and to the point earlier of defining what relationships are, I don’t like everybody. I don’t like you at all and how you treat people, but I need to work with you. We still need to do a thing.
We still need to deliver. We still need to be, work together, and I can’t want to punch a wall every day. I need I need to be able to
Payal Nanjiani: of mind also.
Russel Lolacher: Absolutely. But you sort of touched on this earlier that there’s change happening all the time, and I’m thinking of things, obviously COVID was probably the biggest disruption anybody in our current lifetime has, but I’m also thinking of things like burnt- burnout and how are you supposed to be building and nurturing a daily relationship when the foundation in which you work is not steady or you’re overworked?
Or, I mean, we talked about busy before, but that’s different. I’m talking about disruption. I’m talking about the constant, “Oh, now I have to learn AI.” I, I don’t have the bandwidth to suddenly be the person that, that’s reaching out all the time to do this. How can you prioritize that when your own, the weight of everything is not helping you?
Payal Nanjiani: I think for prioritization and for you to actually adapt to these environments, and especially like, uh, like, like you said, the AI is coming. So the AI itself is like, uh, y- you know, it’s, it’s, it’s a phase of our life where we have to keep constantly learning. And if you’re gonna be overwhelmed by things, one of the biggest things we have to do is we have to start self-mastery, and that is very weak in most of these execs and most of the leaders.
We don’t spend time with ourselves. That is the foundation of your day, and if you’re not going to be doing that, if you’re not able to spend time with yourself, at least 30 minutes in the start of the day, you’re going to be stressed out, you’re going to be pulled in all directions, and then you’re not going to be able to build relationships and think about them in the, in the proper way
Russel Lolacher: Completely, completely agree. So we’ve talked about it from a go out, get engaged, make the effort, be strategic, have intention, but the nurturing piece is interesting to me. So it’s not just the, you know, g- starting those conversations and being daily, but then we have to navigate in those relationships because they’re not gonna be easy every day.
What if those re- how do you know if your relationships are starting to deteriorate? How do you know if those relationships are not strong and that you might need to go, “Oh, you know what? I have this daily practice of nurturing. I might need to put a little extra in that particular bucket.” Uh, what, what are you
Payal Nanjiani: See, in the day-to-day life, not, you know, everybody doesn’t have the time to sit and respond to somebody’s WhatsApp messages or to somebody’s emails. In the day-to-day life, it’s not there. But like I said, you have to be very, uh, attentive to what’s happening in the person’s life. So for example, I know, uh, I know one of the CEOs who had recently put up, uh, you know, a post saying that, “Hey, congratulations to all the…”
You know, it was a sports team, and the women team won, and he literally put it up on, uh, LinkedIn that, “Congratulations, and to the women team for the winning the sports and game and everything.” And, uh, I know him very well. So now I’ve not been in touch with him for a couple of, uh, months, I should say, but definitely we’re on and off because we’ve done workshops and sessions for the company.
Immediately, I, I know what came to my mind, which naturally is it has to come very naturally to your mind. It cannot be made up. What came to my mind naturally was like, hey, you know what? It’s not just about the sports team. He’s always encouraging women, even in his team, and that’s exactly what I wrote for him.
So it has to be spontaneous. Your mind has to be a lot on people. Like I said, it’s not something where you feel, okay, you know what? Today I know that this person has done this. Today I will do this. Consistently, you have to be thinking, what is this person’s problem? What did this person talk to me, uh, last?
It’s a skill you can develop very well if you practice it every single day by just knowing that, what do I bring to this relationship? If I’m connected with so many people, how long has it been since I was in touch with somebody? Consistently, you have to question yourself. You have to put yourself out there.
And like you rightly said, Russel, that it is not a 9:00 to 5:00 job and I’m done. You know, it’s, it’s, it’s those extra efforts, going that mile that will take you, and not everybody does it, so it’s always an advantage if you’re a people person. You cannot fake it.
Russel Lolacher: Touching on diversity of what you mentioned earlier, and, and completely agree with the not faking it thing because sincerity and compassion, people can see right through that if you’re not being either of those things. But some people don’t want a relationship with you. Like, you could be reaching out, they could ghost you at any age, regardless of the generation, and you wanna reach out to that senior leader, that colleague, but you’re not the priority for them.
They’ve got other things, or they just don’t agree with what we’re talking about. When do you stop making that effort, or do you just keep pushing until they break? Like
Payal Nanjiani: you leave.
Russel Lolacher: where is, where do you pump the
Payal Nanjiani: No, you absolutely leave. You don’t have to. I mean, not everybody wants to keep with you, and that’s completely fine. That’s, that’s their choice. That’s the type of leader they are. You are not in synergy with them. Your energies are not matching, completely fine. And I think within two or three times, it’s very easy to know that, yeah, the energies are not matching here and just leave.
I mean, you don’t even have to say anything. It’s, it’s just like when you meet the person, it’s always a good hello, hi. And after that you don’t have to keep building it and nurturing it because there is nothing to nurture. It may be the types of weeds, you know, that are there, which you don’t have to nurture.
It’s okay. That weed is good for somebody else who’s, who’s for whom it is a fertilizer and, and a greener, greener grass. So I think you should leave.
Russel Lolacher: I guess it’s– Uh, completely agree. I think it’s a matter of also just even if you can’t build that connective tissue between you, make sure you’re not the jerk in the meetings that you also attend with that person. Still answer questions, still… Like, ’cause that is a type of relationship, it just might not be the connective tissue that we want and how we define.
That’s their, their boundary is no relationships, but you also don’t wanna be the, I guess the, the, the, the problem or, or the challenge, or they at least wanna think of you fondly if an opportunity comes up or an oppor- you
Payal Nanjiani: Yeah, because see, the world is so vast, your industry is so vast. You don’t have to have… You don’t, you don’t… It’s just, just one person that, oh my goodness, if this person doesn’t have a connection with me, my world is going to fail. Thousands and millions of people on this earth who are completely wanting to sync with you
Russel Lolacher: Do you approach this, as we’re wrapping up our conversation, do you approach this differently with… ‘Cause we haven’t talked about the relationships we have with the teams that we’re responsible for. So we’re talking about this, it’s, a lot of what we’re talking about is other business areas, other levels of the organization.
But there are those right in front of us that we are responsible for, that we are accountable to. That’s also a relationship. Are we treating this differently than that daily practice of, of what’s working, what’s not? Or is it pretty much the
Payal Nanjiani: Yeah, it should be the same. People are people. Now, if they are your people who are your teams versus your upper management or… Keep it the same. Water it every single time, and that’s where it’s going to… As a– And as their leader, you have to do it much more than actually what you’re doing upward, because they are looking up to you for various reasons
Russel Lolacher: The reason I ask that is ’cause there might be somebody on the team that doesn’t wanna have a relationship with you. Maybe they hated the previous boss. Maybe they are having their own struggles and don’t want a relationship. But you don’t have that ch- choice to stop having a relationship with them because you, they are your staff.
Payal Nanjiani: in fact, you know, when you’re saying this, what’s coming to my mind is that as an executive coach, it’s not that every client I get is the same, right? But still I cannot just push away a client and say, “Hey, no, you know what? You’re too difficult. I’m, I’m not gonna be able to coach you.
Absolutely not. Um, you know, you’re not willing to even build a great relationship through, through our coachings and, and understand what this is about.” You cannot do that as a leader. As a leader, it’s equivalent to you’re their coach. So for me, it’s, it’s not any of my clients whom I cannot coach. I feel if you have come to me with a difficulty, if you have come to me with a, you know, with a plan to grow, as long as you meet the criteria of being a mid-manager and up, it is my responsibility to coach you.
You might not be like my other clients who are pretty much, you know, wanting to talk about their family, wanting to invite me to their… You might not be of that, uh, category, but that’s completely fine. But there will be some relationship that we can build rather than staying away. So I think it’s, it’s up to us as an individual also a lot
Russel Lolacher: So I love wrapping it up too with a sort of an, I don’t want to say an actionable plan, but sort of the next step in the journey. So anybody listening to this is going, “You know what, Pyle? I need to start building relationships, but I don’t even know what relationships I have now. I don’t know if I’m the right person to be building those relationships.”
What do you recommend is that first step into the… Before they buy the book, before they, before they go down the complete path, I’m just like, they wake up tomorrow, what’s the first thing that they should be doing?
Payal Nanjiani: Think of people as people. Don’t label them as difficult or easy or, uh, you know, tough to deal with. Just think of them as people, that’s one. Number two, when you think of them as people, connect with their pain points. Everybody in this world has some pain point. Just try to find out what are some of their pain points professionally, personally.
Have a heart-to-heart conversation, and this builds up over time. It’s not something you can go tomorrow and say, “Oh, I wanna know your pain points.” Right? So, share your pain point, automatically you will come to know somebody else. Be vulnerable, that’s the third one, rather than wanting to know from them.
Share your own thoughts, share your own challenges, your obstacles, your failures, and you’ll be amazed at how many people want to connect with you
Russel Lolacher: That is Payal Nanjiani. She is an executive coach and leadership expert, multiple author, but one she’s just released I think you should check out. It’s called “The Success is Within: The 21 Ways for Achieving, uh, Results, Prosperity, and Fulfillment by Changing Your Leadership Mindset.” Thank you so much for being here.
Payal Nanjiani: Thank you so much. It was such an awesome conversation, and I hope your listeners walk away with a lot to learn.
Russel Lolacher: I know they will. Thanks, Payal.